Author Topic: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?  (Read 24040 times)

Offline Jack Harvey

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #30 on: 2010 March 23 10:24:25 »
This thread has really not contributed to the enhancement of PixInsight.  In fact it has done just the opposite and if you check the threads on the CCD NewAstro forum it puts us in a very bad light.  I for one say Juan should pull this thread and we all ought to get back to the professional and educational endeavors this forum has promoted in the past.
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Offline Nocturnal

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #31 on: 2010 March 23 10:44:41 »

Holy cow, I don't pay attention for a few days and this pot just bubbles over :)

I've sort of read the thread on newastro but it's a group I don't follow intently. If someone wants to spend the energy to compare software packages that's great, more power to them. I'd rather spend my time writing the occasional article and preparing for my MWAIC presentation. I think the best way to promote PI, if you're so inclined, is to point out some of the things you like about it without claiming it's unique in that regard. I like the preview functionality and how you can do trial and error and even do different flavors of the same process without note taking. Once you decide which preview (or image) looks the best, grab the process from the history and apply where needed. Frankly I doubt other software has this functionality but maybe it does. I don't have all the other packages and I don't feel like getting into a pissing contest about it either. I'll read other user's experiences with other packages with interest and decide if that's something that justifies buying that software.

I hope Ron joins the forum soon. His Zone System book was instrumental in getting me over the first hump of image processing. I do things differently now but clearly the ideas in the book still affect my thinking. I 'ported' most of the steps from PS (in the book) to PI with good success. Ultimately I have no vested interest besides desiring continuity in PI development. That's best assured by getting more people signed up. At the same time it seems that PI users are the 'cool kids' right now and that would diminish if 'everyone' became a PI user :)

Best,

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Offline Harry page

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #32 on: 2010 March 23 11:11:12 »
Hi Mark

Welcome to PI  8)

Thanks for the kind words on the vids always nice  :angel:

Stay a while amoung its ancient charms , we are not a bad bunch here , perhapes a bit over enthusatic some times  ;D

Look forward to your input and I enjoyed your web site

Harry
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Offline mmirot

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #33 on: 2010 March 23 13:38:07 »

Holy cow, I don't pay attention for a few days and this pot just bubbles over :)
.........

I hope Ron joins the forum soon. His Zone System book was instrumental in getting me over the first hump of image processing. I do things differently now but clearly the ideas in the book still affect my thinking. I 'ported' most of the steps from PS (in the book) to PI with good success. Ultimately I have no vested interest besides desiring continuity in PI development. That's best assured by getting more people signed up. At the same time it seems that PI users are the 'cool kids' right now and that would diminish if 'everyone' became a PI user :)....



Offline mmirot

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #34 on: 2010 March 23 13:56:13 »


Holy cow, I don't pay attention for a few days and this pot just bubbles over :)
.........

I hope Ron joins the forum soon. His Zone System book was instrumental in getting me over the first hump of image processing. I do things differently now but clearly the ideas in the book still affect my thinking. I 'ported' most of the steps from PS (in the book) to PI with good success. Ultimately I have no vested interest besides desiring continuity in PI development. That's best assured by getting more people signed up. At the same time it seems that PI users are the 'cool kids' right now and that would diminish if 'everyone' became a PI user :)....



I had nt seen much happing on New Astro. There must be something I missed too.

We will surely see more and more reviews and variety of comments about PI as it gains popularity.
Some of this will be good, bad, fair, unfair, accurate and inaccurate etc...

My point is. No one can control this. It is a will alway be compared to other software.
This is especially true now that the PI is starting to reach critical mass in terms of users.
If there are very few opinnions out there: It means very few people are using the product.

BTW , Ron is excellent astrophotographer and a programmer. 
I think we should be happy if joins this group. 

Max



Offline Jack Harvey

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #35 on: 2010 March 23 16:17:37 »
Well if your hopes were that PI would get some good press and exposure from this thread.....

From CCD New Astro: 
When I did the Zone System book, there were a LOT of very good books on
Photoshop itself, but very few that provided a useful conceptual structure for
how to use Photoshop for astronomy images.

And there had been quite a few good books on using Photoshop long before that.
But, again, nothing about how to use it for astronomy.

From what I'm hearing, Pix Insight really needs someone to put together a how-to
book or web site or help file. The software itself would seem to be way out in
front of information about how to use it.

Having long been a technical writer in the software industry, I have seen that
happen many times. I've even seen it kill some good software packages.

My feedback re: PI would be - a good manual and/or help file appear to be
overdue.

When I was a technical writer, we used to joke that the programming guys didn't
seem to realize that it took nearly as long to document software as it does to
develop it. <g> It's not _actually_ true, but close enough. It takes a lot of
time and effort to properly document software, and the more complex and the more
it represents a new paradigm, the more important that is and the longer it
takes.

I think that PI's value would be a lot more obvious, and it would be adopted
more widely, if the hundreds of hours it would take to properly document were
devoted to it.

The fact that it takes days just to get into the forum would suggest that folks
are, however, already too busy on the programming side. It's a case of what
comes first, the cart or the horse/the features or the documentation. The truth
is you need both.

More than achieving my own understanding of PI (unlikely as things stand; my
schedule at Tzec Maun is too busy to figure stuff out for myself these days), I
would like to see a good manual or at least a good help file. When I think of
some of the software we have adopted lately (like Bob Denny's ACP), we did so
because we saw that there was adequate documentation and support. It's very hard
for many of us to commit time to software that doesn't appear to have the level
of support we require. With ACP, we saw documentation that was highly detailed,
a forum that was highly responsive, and we were members of that forum within a
few hours of buying the software. That kind of stuff matters - a lot. You could
have the greatest product in the world, but if you don't have the secondary
characteristics that smooth the way, it still might fail to get the attention it
deserves, or it might get the wrong sort of attention.

I appreciate that someone mentioned that the PI folks are looking for feedback;
you have mine. It's not about features; it's about making the software more
accessible, and more visibly supported for new users.

Ron Wodaski
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Offline RBA

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #36 on: 2010 March 23 16:45:08 »
Well if your hopes were that PI would get some good press and exposure from this thread.....

This doesn't say anything I haven't heard (and even SAID) before. I know, I haven't said it here, but I have at other places often visited by some PTeam members. This is not bad press. It's the perception many people have about PI. You (I don't mean you Jack in particular) can ignore it, or you can face it and think if something can be done about it. I'd rather hear/read about it and be aware that the "problem" exists, than live in a world where I believe there's enough "data" out there for people to figure things out, that this forum is the answer to whatever hasn't been answered already, and in the meantime, lose potential users...

There are TONS of "how-tos" in the form of tutorials and processing examples right here in the PI's web site, there's the wiki and there's the obsolete but to an extent relevant documentation of PI LE, but for some reason, people either don't see them, or take a look and leave the way they came.

When asked about that, people say "Yeah, there's a lot of information but it's very disorganized". Whether that's true or not, it is what is often perceived by many people. Efforts may have been made into getting all this info in a more compact form, but if people still don't "see" it, the problem hasn't been solved.

I'll tell you what I see... If I want to find how to use, say, the StarMask module, or the MT tool, there's no hierarchical way that brings me there. It is somewhere there, "buried" within the text and images of some tutorial or processing example. Sometimes all is needed is an easy way to access information. What Ron is asking *I think* is for a place where he can do just that. BTW I've never read a single page from Photoshop's user manual or the help file.

Gonna have to quit my day job and start writing "PI for Dummies" (I'll leave the "PI for experts" to someone else  ;D )


Offline dhalliday

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #37 on: 2010 March 23 16:59:53 »
Jack
Yes I saw that message on the CCD group.

Listen,regarding your earlier comment...I could not help but feel a little "sensitive"...

Like I was maybe the "crazy aunt" you had to put in the cellar when company comes calling. >:D
Perhaps my skin is too thin...(well,I know it is,and my mouth is too big.)

I have (previous to ALL of this thread,some 10 days ago) personally Emailed Ron,and and made clear that while I would enjoy participating in his group,I was in NO WAY there to "flog Pixinsight"...and I realized the CCD group was based,to a degree, around the use of Photoshop.
I wanted to put that on the record.
To him,....directly,privately,and personally.This is always the best way.
I don't think anyone was disrespecting anyone....
Bye

Dave

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Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #38 on: 2010 March 23 17:24:09 »
I think that PI is now coming to a major crossroads. Once the 1.6.0 release is out, and any major bugs are squashed, the whole 'community' needs to start pooling together.

There is now no doubt in my mind that serious, organized, documentation is a MUST. I have paid lip service to this feeling in the past, but now realise that - somehow - 'documentation' must take priority over 'development'. And, hopefully, Juan and the other PTeam members will see the advantages of this. If we can get the documentation up to a usable level for those processes we already have, then it will become easier to 'add information' as existing processes are 'tweaked', or as new processes become available.

Juan, can you now see the advantages of getting the documentation sorted out - as a priority over further development? (I ,for one, will stand ready to help as much as time and ability allows).

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
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Offline georg.viehoever

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #39 on: 2010 March 23 17:32:00 »
Hi,

There is now no doubt in my mind that serious, organized, documentation is a MUST. I have paid lip service to this feeling in the past, but now realise that - somehow - 'documentation' must take priority over 'development'. And, hopefully, Juan and the other PTeam members will see the advantages of this. If we can get the documentation up to a usable level for those processes we already have, then it will become easier to 'add information' as existing processes are 'tweaked', or as new processes become available.

I second that. After 2 years I have found my ways with PI in many places, and I know where to look for information. Still, there are a number of mysteries for me in PI, and it is not always possible to do detective work in the forums. For beginners, this must be a horror scenario. So please: put a priority on documentation (one consistent document, not many places where somewhere the right information is buried).

Georg
Georg (6 inch Newton, unmodified Canon EOS40D+80D, unguided EQ5 mount)

Offline Jack Harvey

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #40 on: 2010 March 23 17:39:54 »

This quote is from the 1992 movie "A League of Their Own." ( a movie about women in baseball during WWII)
It was spoken by Tom Hanks to Geena Davis , playing coach Jimmy Dugan and star player Dottie Hinson. The exact quote is:
"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great. "
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Offline RBA

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #41 on: 2010 March 23 17:48:44 »
This documentation thing comes and goes. It all depends where Juan wants to take PI.

« Last Edit: 2010 March 23 18:53:21 by RBA »

Offline cfranks

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #42 on: 2010 March 23 21:16:23 »


"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great. "

If you are trying to sell a product then you want everyone to buy it.  I'm a bit of a dummy where this product is concerned.  I really enjoy Harry's videos, Niall's detailed explanations, in fact, all of the people here, but a lot of the descriptions are beyond my comprehension.  I bought the PI full product a while ago and I believe I would get a lot out of ordered documentation.  Usually, I don't know enough to ask sensible questions.  ??? 
Thanks for the help so far.
Charles

Offline Nocturnal

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #43 on: 2010 March 24 07:02:36 »
I think Juan should revisit the way forum activation is done. Clearly it gives a bad first impression when someone has to wait days to join. If an automated process is not acceptable somehow then get the responsibility distributed so it doesn't take more than a few hours tops. It makes PI seem elitist and arrogant. Both perhaps accurate descriptions but you don't want to admit to that right away :)

As for docs, yeah. That needs to be done. And not a community effort either. This is not a community project. This is a commercial product and not cheap either. Documentation needs to be written by the people that wrote the software, not as an interpretation by others. Sure, community documentation is nice to have in *addition* to official documentation as it provides a different perspective.

What I proposed to Juan a long time ago is to provide a help file per module. Use a standardized format but don't make it so complicated it'll never get written. A simple HTML file will probably work well. Then a help file for the main interface is needed that describes things like file handling, previews, processes and screen transfer function (yes it's a module but you'll never find it if you don't know what to look for). A quick start guide. Being able to search the help content. You know, basic stuff.
Best,

    Sander
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QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
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Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Pixinsight "scrum/team" forming on "CCD Astro group "...?
« Reply #44 on: 2010 March 24 07:27:59 »
Hi all,

Perhaps Juan does need to think about 'spreading the load' as far as Forum support and maintenance is concerned - it could be trialled, and if it does not prove satisfactory then it can be revoked. Shouldn't be that difficult - I am sure Juan knows who he would be willing to 'trust'.

That said, even the likes of Ron Wodaski maintains the right to 'moderate' all posts on 'his' Forum - that is his choice, and it is neither 'right' nor 'wrong'. He presumably also maintains the right to decide who earns the right to become a member as well. Now, Juan 'moderates' membership, but chooses not to 'pre-moderate' message posts. Again, that is 'his' choice - neither right, nor wrong.

But, as I have said before, I feel that PixInsight is now AT one of the major crossroads in its development path. However, importantly, there is NO traffic 'queueing up' behind it - so there should NOT be any rush to move forward. Hopefully a brief detour can now be made, down through the little village of 'Documentation' (population 0), rather than just hammering along the endless motorway of development.

But, yes, Juan has to remain as the 'driver' - only HE knows how the code has been put together, so only HE can lay down the foundations. And the Wiki environment may still be the best place to start, perhaps not as has already been done - by 'us', the users - but by Juan himself - with a 'common' appearance throughout all of 'his' documentation, yet still allowing 'others' to build on his (very detailed) framework (either by simple 'corrections', or by 'detailed supplements' based on 'user experience').

Even the Wiki has not been THAT successful - I am sure that I would be able to contribute to some areas, but I haven't a clue where to start! Who is going to volunteer to write/video a tutorial on how to write a Wiki Tutorial  ??? ::) ???

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC