Author Topic: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending  (Read 51177 times)

Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #90 on: 2010 January 24 17:58:37 »
Thanks...
Ya the binned M51 data was due to (I confess  :police:) a wish to do 3 minute (unbinned) Luminance and 3 minutes binned for RGB...
I got the Lum data...and fine data it seems to be...
Lots of good detail in there...and easy to process...
I am (still) going to try and "blend" it all together...especially with all my new tricks..!!
BUT...I got so buggered up I said "lets just have a go at the three matching sets (RBG)
Hence the lousy resolution...

It is  1 month since I got the camera...and almost NO clear sky..
I continue to have trouble with the fact that EVERYONE seems to do this Lum/RBG thing...
I keep thinking of my favorite bumper sticker;
"Eat lamb,20,000 coyotes can't be wrong"...(!!)

As far as "to bin or not to bin" at 1800mm...well I guess I will figure it out over time...
All I need is 30 clear nites in a row,and 4 weeks holidays 8)

Dave


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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #91 on: 2010 January 24 18:24:47 »
Here is a JPEG of the (processed) Lum data...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveh56/4301858997/sizes/o/
This is 240 seconds..
UNBINNED..(the good stuff !)

So HOW would I blend this in...?
BEFORE it is at this stage...?  with the final RBG process...?
I will play around...

Harry,I know it is 2 AM in the UK...but wake up >:D

Dave
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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #92 on: 2010 January 24 18:45:40 »
So here is the two ALREADY PROCESSED images "squished together";
ie the RBG finished image,and the Lum image I just posted;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveh56/4301916415/sizes/l/

It does not look quite right...
?????????????

Dave
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Offline Harry page

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #93 on: 2010 January 25 09:56:41 »
Hi Dave

Sorry fast asleep , not a star to be seen through the fog  :'(

After a look at your work a couple of things

1) The m51 lum is not much if any deeper than you RGB , as usuall more time required

2) As you say , nearley finish of your RGB and LUm and combine them in the LRGB tool

3) The LRGB looks washed out and lacks colour , to help this I make sure my RGB has good colour ( Possibley OTT ) and lower the transfer function ( try 0.4 ) to increase the colour strenth ( yes I know the smaller the number the stronger it is )

4) you can also try and check the chrom noise reduction

See how you get on

Harry
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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #94 on: 2010 January 25 11:45:25 »
Harry
But the Lum is UNBINNED...is it not bringing ANY extra detail into the image...?
It should have twice the details...no?

It was 240 seconds...doubt I could expose much longer...and it was 30 frames...
I will retry a few things...at least I am on the right track with combining the two finished results...
Listen in "Curves" I was quite impressed by how adjusting the "Luminance" curve impacted the COLOR...
That was fascinating...could you say a bit more about that...?

Stuff about Luim/Chrom balance I am still not getting...
Around 400 "Flickerites" have had a look at the video link so far....
I think maybe you are up for a "best direction" award... >:D

Dave

Dave
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Offline Harry page

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #95 on: 2010 January 25 12:51:10 »
Hi

You will have to back to my thing about seeing and 2 sec per pixel !
Also you also need depth to a image ( SNR ) to be able to release that information in processing .
The min subs I use are 300secs and on M51 I used 600 sec  ;D

Now are we talking about the contrast curve I used or the saturation curve !!!!!!!!!!!!

The LUm chrom thing is really about the fact that the eye see's detail in luminance and therefore you do not need to be so fussy over the colour ( chrom )

Well as for the best director , i was going for a life time achievement Jobby


Harry
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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #96 on: 2010 January 25 13:44:58 »
Another go at it,and not much better;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveh56/4304897244/sizes/o/

Listen,should I leave all 4 sliders at "100%" for the 4 channels...?...because the Lum data is quite different..ie unbinned,different exposure times...
Why is adjusting the sliders (Channel Weights) an option,(I think I already know..) and if I do adjust the RBG why does it offer "Uniform RBG dynamic ranges"...
What is the difference between channel weight and dynamic range...?
It is a daunting choice of option at every turn in Pixinsight... :yell:

And again,regarding the "luminance" and "Saturation" sliders...both start at default...40%
What and why do we change them...I mean what is each of the 4 possible shift combo's DOING to the data,and the way it is put together..?

volunteers..?
Dave
PS Are Harry and I helping anyone else out here...?
Or am I the only one struggling with this stuff...
Again it certainly underscores the value OF just shooting RBG...and since I can expose 3 times longer with each filter...WHY would I want Lum data..??? >:D
Dave Halliday
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Offline Harry page

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #97 on: 2010 January 25 14:22:48 »


Hi

Most of the time leave the channel weights alone , you have got these balanced already and as for the dynamic range , aint got a clue ???

My default start at 50% and 50% ?

Any way usually your lum will be stronger than your colour ( That's why its washed out some times ) so a increase in the sat ( Colour ) helps  I usually work around 50% lum and 40 % sat  ;D

As your lum data is unfiltered you can in theory get more data than you can with a filtered image ( if unbinned in the colour ) therefore a deeper image

Harry

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Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #98 on: 2010 January 25 14:34:06 »
Hi Dave,

The FIRST thing that you HAVE to keep in mind is that the image that you see on the screen in front of you (which will also be the source of any image that you ever choose to print out) is ONLY constructed from Red, Green and Blue data.

In other words it is an R-G-B image.

It is NEVER an -L- RGB image. Ever.

3 colour channels. 3 colour planes. 3 different phosphor dots on a CRT. 3 different liquid crystals behind 3 different colour filters on your LCD.

THREE

And LRGB is FOUR

So, where the h3ll does the 'fourth' channel go?

It has no other choice than to be 'blended' into the original three channels (Red, Green and Blue, naturally).

Same argument goes for incorporating an 'extra' Ha channel. Where the heck is the data going to go  ???

The solution is to use the 'brightness' information in the Lu channel as extra 'detail' information, to 'brighten' the underlying RGB channels (and, for an axtra Ha channel, what often happens is that the Ha channel is used to brighten 'only' the Rd channel, thus 'enhancing' the Rd data with respect to the other channels).

But, you can only 'brighten' the data in a channel 'so much', before you start 'running out of headroom' - i.e. the data in that channel starts to 'saturate', and the extra detail that you hoped you were adding simply results in a car-crash.

So, instead, the Lu data is 'scaled back' during the LRGB combination process - to a point where the effort was still worthwhile, but before the car-crash point.

At the same time, what can also be done to help mitigate at the 'loss of headroom' when adding the Lu channel, is to 'scale-up' the RGB channels beforehand, then add the Lu channel, and then let PixInsights automatic rescaling feature get all the data back into the 0.0 - 1.0 range.

This RGB 'scaling-up' can either be done 'globally' as a 'Saturation' boost, or it can be done using the L, R, G and B sliders.

There is no particular 'right' or 'wrong' way. You may not have to touch the sliders or selector buttons at all - whether you do actually depends on the histogram distribution of your Lu data in the first place. If you have worked the Lu image very hard - to the point where it is a stunning image in its's own right (probably the 'typical' approach) then the Lu data may actually totally 'overpower' the RGB data, giving the image lots of detail, for sure, but at the expense of all the colour saturation you actually had in the first place.

This is where (as I understand things, I don't have 'binning' options on my $400 camera) the art of Unbinned L + Binned RGB comes into its own. You bin the RGB, to save exposure and acquisition time, but still maintain 'depth' of colour because the 'binned super-pixels' are 'super-sensitive'. So you maintain nice colour depth. And the detail that you no longer have is then subsequently replaced by the Lu , un-binned, high(er) resolution data - 'layered' on top of the low(er) resolution, well-saturated, colour data.

But, you have to be 'gentle' and 'skillful' when 'blending' in the Lu data again - you CANNOT just 'pour it on' (think children and wax crayons here - give an artist the same crayons, and a much nicer result should ensue - unless that 'artist' has the same skill as me  ???)

That is why it can help to either concentrate on Lu (ALONE) for a while, or RGB (ALONE) for a while - until you can 'control' that data. Then, you can try to massage detail out of your 'combined' images once you can see how the process is going to behave.

Juan does have a point in that if both your Lu and RGB data has the same spatial resolution (eg from Lu, Rd, Gn and Bu filters on a single camera), then there may actually only be a tiny advantage in bringing that Lu data 'into play' - at least as an Lu channel. That is why it can be 'more fun' blending in an Ha channel - the results are more obvious, and hence the effort put in makes the smiles bigger  :D

Basically, LRGB is just NOT 'essential' - get the RGB side done, and done right, and you may not need the Lu data at all.

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
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Offline Harry page

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #99 on: 2010 January 25 14:41:07 »


Nice write up niall   8)

I still like my LRGB    >:D



harry
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Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #100 on: 2010 January 25 14:50:11 »
No, don't get me wrong Harry - L-RGB still has it's place.

Providing ALL of the concepts are understood, it is still PERFECTLY acceptable to create a full LRGB image from UN-BINNED data - so long as the overall process is understood.

Heck - I am right in the middle of calibrating my M1 Lu data myself (hooray, it was only back at the start of November last year that I acquired the RGB data :'() so I am going to have to do exactly what I was trying to describe to Dave, i.e. to 'fine-tune' how I incorporate the Lu channel into the RGB mix (or even the (Ha.R)GB mix, if I get brave enough!)

It is more of a case of being 'not essential' to 'have to' incorporate the Lu data - or even 'all of it' - which is why the 'sliders' are there, of course  :laugh:

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
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Offline Harry page

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #101 on: 2010 January 25 14:53:39 »
Hi

As we have said before , There may be a technicaly correct and best way to do a thing , but what works for you personaly is The BEST



Harry
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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #102 on: 2010 January 25 19:44:53 »
Thanks guys...I will take some time to work more on it...and clear skies are coming back...(!!!)
Harry: we are at 400 "clicks" on the video link...maybe slowing down a bit... >:D

Dave
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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #103 on: 2010 January 26 15:32:55 »
OK...how about this version;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveh56/4307875160/sizes/l/


I had to use a technique a bit different from Harry's "LRGB" video to get a blend to work...seemed to have to tick off different boxes for image source...anyways...IT SEEMED TO WORK OK...!!
IMHO >:D

PS I applied "deconvolution" to the FINAL image...AND IT HELPED...!!! >:D
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Offline Jack Harvey

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #104 on: 2010 January 27 07:11:36 »
A few iterations of mild deconvolution to the final image will often improve resolution or sharpness.  You need to follow that up by carefully looking at the stars and background, etc to be sure you did not introduce some unwanted artifacts.  If so then a re do with appropriate masking is the ticket.
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