Author Topic: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending  (Read 51169 times)

Offline Harry page

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #15 on: 2010 January 16 07:11:23 »
Hi
A couple of things for you to contemplate !

1)If you are just capturing rgb ( in unbinned mode ) I would personally process this as a RGB image like I do with a OSC image , I personally do not see any
 advantage with extracting and working on a synthetic LUM.

2) I only work with A lum image if it is a genuine Lum and I do like to do this ( Yes a LRGB Image )  As I find signal very hard to come by I prefer to spend my time on the Lum part,  Probably as I am not sat on some mountain  :D

3) Just a thought on your histogram problem on registered images , these might contain a blank area from misaligned frames this could effect the histogram ?

4) I would try and wean yourself of the ABE   as you will get better results with DBE


And as for the lack of Pixinsight users , that will change as people learn what it can do and we beat the unbelievers into submission   , people have Photoshop so deep in their physchy that it can hard for the old stick in the muds to change  ???

Keep at it you soon will have it cracked


Regards Harry

Now where is that money I left laying around so I can buy a tak , nope can't find it will have to manage with what I have got  :police:
Harry Page

Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #16 on: 2010 January 16 09:35:55 »
Hello (again !!) all

Some progress to report;
1) "star align" is fine.....I was erroneously using "dynamic" without realizing it was ADDING images together...(!!)
2)I did a RBG combine...then EXTRACTED a synthetic "L"...
2)I took the synthetic "L" and did ALL kinds of nasty things to it Greycstoration,HDR wavelets,etc.
   Once I had it looking mighty fine...I "bodged" the whole thing together (synthetic L,plus re-deconstructed RBG...)
I quite like it (so far)...!!

I think I am SLOWLY getting the point of all this... >:D
The REAL work gets done on the "L"...and no need to waste time acquiring it....(just grab it from RBG...)

I used to fret that applying HDR wavelets to a color image really damaged the color...
If I just apply it to the "L"...and then blend it back in...I seem to get the best of both worlds..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveh56/4279399130/sizes/l/

More thoughts folks..??

Dave
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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #17 on: 2010 January 16 10:51:07 »
So I went back to a DSLR shot...extracted L...and "tuned it up"...
Then split original into RBG and put all 4 back together again...
Pretty sure this is a winning strategy...
Juan...(on Monday..!!)...what do you say..?
original;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveh56/4194994824/sizes/l/
and reprocess;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveh56/4279609668/sizes/l/

Dave
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Offline georg.viehoever

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #18 on: 2010 January 16 11:59:34 »
Hi Dave,
looking good indeed. I also found that using synthetic L channels sometime is rather helpful...it preserves colors and allows for specific noise reduction for L and the color channels.

Thanks for sharing!

Georg
Georg (6 inch Newton, unmodified Canon EOS40D+80D, unguided EQ5 mount)

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #19 on: 2010 January 17 02:05:35 »
Hi all,

Reply #10 to this thread, buy Juan (as usual  :cheesy:) contains some of the clearest reasoning behind choosing L+R+G+B, versus L+Rbin+Gbin+Bbin, versus Lsyn+R+G+B (or, indeed, Lsyn+RoscGoscBosc), versus 'plain old' R+G+B (or, again, RoscGoscBosc).

Certainly, in my recent M1 attempt, I still have never yet managed to get the L data for the sequence (remember, I managed to save three hours of 5-min subs in JPEG format - rendering them useless for any further processing, and so have since deleted the entire evening's data !). But, even without the L data, I still have a very pleasing image (to my jaded eyes, anyway).

Sure, I do also have the Ha data (taken as 10-min subs, to compensate for the narrow bandwidth - but I have learned from that experiment as well and, next time, I will restrict even my Ha data to well below the limit where Differential Flexure starts causing pixel abberation of more than 0.5 pixel.

And, for Dave, what I did to incorporate the Ha data into my (near enough) fully processed R+G+B image was to channel-split the RGB, then take the Rd and Ha images (already precisely aligned, naturally, and with the Ha data already pre-processed as well) and then use PixelMath to MULTIPLY the two images together, rescaling back to the PI [0,1] range afterwards. Before I recombined the channels, I applied a Histo transform to the Ha.R image, such that the background and median values were near enough the same as the original Rd channel.

And then all I needed to do was 'cosmetic' tweaks to get the image looking the way 'I wanted' it to look - which is always personal choice, and usually has NOTHING to do with the actual scientific content of the images.

So, my advice (advice that I will follow myself, after at least one more attempt to TRY and get my M1 Lum data) is to concentrate on RGB alone and - AS A SEPARATE TASK ALTOGETHER to concentrate on L data, just to get to know the processes in just dealing with MONOCHROME data - which you can, of course, then consider applying to Ha, Rd, Gn or Bu - if you need to.

Up until now I would have said that there was NO ADVANTAGE to using an extracted, synthesised, L channel from either R+G+B data, or from RoscGoscBosc data. But now, based on Juan's message, I will have to rethink that statement, and I would certainly not be quite so quick to pass it on as 'gospel'.

So, Dave, it just goes to show that - as usual - there are NEVER any 'dumb questions' in this game  ;)

And, just to keep Harry laughing, here is my Nov-2009 "M1 Crab" (Ha.RGB, full-size - remember the DSI-II is only 748x577 native)



Cheers,
« Last Edit: 2010 January 18 06:07:23 by Niall Saunders »
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
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Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #20 on: 2010 January 17 02:15:51 »
Dave,

Just to confuse you further,

I actually think that I prefer the 'original' version of your IC434 Horse's Head. It is 'smoother' - even though it has a 'purple cast' down the left-hand side (you could crop that out).

The quality of the nebulosity in the original is also 'softer', and therefore 'more pleasing'. I also don't find the 'pure red' of the reprocessed image to be 'natural' either, and I think that the fact that you have ended up with 'pure black' for your sky background is past of the same problem (never aim for 'pure black' background was something I picked up a long time ago - I can't remember where - so I always, subconsciously, try to leave my sky background just a little bit on the 'blue' side). You could try SCNR with a small amount of Maximum Blue reduction - which should leave the blue alone in the 'dark areas'.

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

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Offline Harry page

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #21 on: 2010 January 17 07:52:56 »
Hi Niall


I am not laughing , At least you got a image to work on  :D

I would just say that the tendrils of M1 are a bit in the purple side  and share your pain with lost subs

the only thing I got near to this is I forgot to plug in my laptop at the end of last year , got up and running went to bed and got up 6 hrs later
with a whole 2 10 min subs   :'(  ( laptop ran out of power and shut down)

Some day there will be clear skies in the Uk  ,  Quick look up a PIG  ;D


Harry

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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #22 on: 2010 January 17 11:38:33 »
I thought Juan was advocating RBG imaging,AND a synthetic (extracted) L...
Have I got this wrong...?
My level of ignorance is appalling here... :-[

Listen,with my new found "Pixinsight powers" I have been "deconstructing" a bunch of my DSLR images...
I often see that one or the other channels is noisier (?? grainier) than others..
Is going in and doing ACDNR,and a reset histo of that data,followed by a "reassemble"  a reasonable thing to do..??
Presumably Juan was alluding to processes working BETTER on gray scale data...(wasn't he ??)

On a seperate note;
If I am going to apply ACDNR (for example) to a image...does it matter whether I do a histo stretch on it FIRST...?
Or is it better to do the "stretch" with the screen transfer only..apply the ACDNR and then stretch it...?
This has been bothering my mind for some time..
Niall;
That crab looks a bit "off color" but as long as you do not eat it you should be OK... >:D
Have you tried the "upsample" function...
I swear that this sometimes allows me to take further "liberties" with fairly small images...such as here;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveh56/4279846983/sizes/l/
This was a crop+++ from a DSLR shot.
After "upsampling" HDR wavelets seemed to treat it much better....or maybe I was delerious,,,

Dave
« Last Edit: 2010 January 17 11:45:41 by dhalliday »
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Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #23 on: 2010 January 17 11:49:54 »
Hi Dave - yes, that Crab is 'off'  :P

It is one of the areas I need to tackle again - I probably messed it up when I added in the Ha - I need to go back and compare it with the image state 'prior' to the Ha blend

And, yes, I upsampled quite early on in the process, and then downsampled just prior to completion (I think, I can't remember exactly when)

Yes, Juan does seem to advocate LsynRGB, where L is 'syn'thesised from the RGB data (either filtered mono images, or OSC images - it wouldn't make any difference)

But he also advocates AGAINST 'binning' RGB data, and then trying to synthesise the Lu component - and I have to agree with him on that. If you are going to 'bin' your colour data, you HAVE to use 'real' Luminance data to recover the detail lost in your colour data.

I usually find either the Bu or the Gn channel to be 'noisy', especially the Bu channel.

It is up to you whether you process the individual channels 'separately', or as a combined RGB image. However, Juan suggests that it is 'easier' to process the image whilst it remains 'combined', and I do tend to agree with him.

'ACDNR before/after Histo'? I can't remember now - somewhere I have a scribble copied down from a Forum post where somebody (Juan?) described which processes 'MUST' be applied to 'Linear' data (it might even have been on THIS thread !!) because, once you have made the transition to non-linear data, there is no going back, and some processes, thereafter, will simply no be applicable.

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #24 on: 2010 January 17 16:39:03 »
Niall
Just some random thoughts here....
The NOISE in each channel should be equal...
It must be that with less signal..(ie blue vs red) you "see" more noise..(? sky gradient,not object signal)

So do you think that it is only the Lu channel that he is talking about "overprocessing"...ie to enhance detail...?

I realize we are parsing his words here...
Presumably he means to suggest a RBG combine,extract the Luminance,and somehow process it differently than the RBG blend...
I would then assume he is doing a Lu/R/B/G blend...
And in this tool one can play around with the amounts...
This detail eludes me yet.
As does "wavelets" and a heck of a lot more...
Heck I do not even understand linear vs nonlinear data..!!
Having said that,on several forums people are saying "you dummy"..the Lum data is so important,etc,etc...(!!)

My understanding is that HDR wavelets,Deconvolution,unsharp, should ONLY be done to the Luminant data..agree?
Any other thoughts..?
My only other question...if anyone else could tell me,is when doing the LRBG combo thing,how does one set it up to only "do" it to a preview...
Because I find it can take a lot of experimenting,and previews speed this up..!!

Dave
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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #25 on: 2010 January 20 03:16:53 »
Juan/group
Any followup here..?
Specifically on using previews for LRBG combine...and the merits(?) of processing individual channels (NR etc) BEFORE combining..?

Dave
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Offline Jack Harvey

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #26 on: 2010 January 20 05:54:00 »
I noted the discussion in SBIG.  That group has fairly fixed ideas that have been handed down thru the ages.  New ideas, especially ones not proffered by the old boys, are slow if ever to take hold.  Not so here, so carry on!
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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #27 on: 2010 January 20 13:42:37 »
Jack
I appreciate your candor...
I have found ditto on the DSLR group...
Certain retail interests also in play...(!!!)
Can someone talk me through LRGB blend in PREVIEW mode...
I think I see blue sky at 5 PM...!!! ;D
Dave Halliday
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Offline Harry page

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #28 on: 2010 January 20 15:06:43 »
Hi Niall


I managed a Crab as well the other night , doing a LRGB  the RGB with a OSC and the lum with a mono camera , While this image has a lot of problems particularly the stars ( Been messing with my newt ! )  I can personally get more from my limited imaging and sky conditions


Any way no laughing  8)


Harry
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Offline Jack Harvey

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Re: Second dumb question-about LRBG blending
« Reply #29 on: 2010 January 20 15:31:28 »
Harry  whats to laugh about.  Nice work
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