Author Topic: Color Management trouble, TIFFs look different in PI compared to PSP  (Read 4743 times)

Offline Nocturnal

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Hi,

tricky subject. I finished processing an image in PI and assigned it the sRGB profile so it should look acceptable on most display devices, including browsers without color profile processing enabled. This isn't quite working as well as I hoped it would. I saved my image as a 16 bit TIFF with embedded ICC Profile. Loaded in PSP X2 (16 bit capable) the image doesn't quite look the same. Most noticably the black levels appear clipped. Dark areas that have shades of grey in PI have the same black color in PSP. Interestingly, when I use PSP to crop part of the image that shows the black clipping and load it back into PI the color is no longer clipped.

Clearly this is mind blowing :) It's certainly possible that PSP is not doing proper color profile transformations or that there's something else going on. I do not have a Spider or other hardware calibration device, maybe it's time for one of those but I need to understand the problem first. Can you provide a list of things I should do/check?

My goal is to provide reasonably accurate representations in most browsers even if they don't have color management capabilities. This means sRGB which is the default if not specified. I've tried saving TIFFs in PI without ICC Profile and they look the same as with. Color management in PSP is enabled, sRGB profile selected.

Sorry for the ramble but this is a frustrating result when I spend quite a bit of time squeezing color out of my stack :)

Thanks!
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline Juan Conejero

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Color Management trouble, TIFFs look different in PI compared to PSP
« Reply #1 on: 2008 September 06 15:54:55 »
Hi Sander,

Quote
tricky subject.


Welcome to the wonderful world of color management :D

Quote
I finished processing an image in PI and assigned it the sRGB profile


Did you *just* assigned the sRGB profile? If you did so, then here is the problem. When you embed an ICC profile in an image, you are stating that every pixel in the image has a numerical value expressed in the color space corresponding to the embedded ICC profile. In other words, embedding a profile is telling that the profile space must be used to interpret the image.

What you actually want to do is *converting* all pixel values from your working profile to the sRGB profile, then embedding the sRGB profile. The conversion can be carried out in PixInsight by means of ICCProfileTransformation. This process will assign the target profile automatically, so it will be embedded when you save the image.

*Before* applying ICCProfileTransformation you should enable color proofing (Ctrl+F11) and gamut check (Shift+F11) to verify that not too many pixels are outside the sRGB space. To do this, open ColorManagementSetup, click on the "Load Current Settings" button, and ensure that the sRGB profile is selected as the proofing profile (execute the.process globally if you need to apply changes).

If your image shows out-of-gamut pixels to an unacceptable extent, the most likely cause is excessive color saturation. In this case CurvesTransformation can do the trick. Apply a (de)saturation curve with the gamut check function enabled and see what happens.

Quote
I do not have a Spider or other hardware calibration device, maybe it's time for one of those


I'll tell you a secret: the importance of monitor calibration is largely overestimated. It's the brightness adjustment what is really important, and to adapt monitor brightness to environmental conditions. I don't use a hardware calibration device. Shhh, don't tell anyone... 8)

Tell me if this solves your problem/doubts.
Juan Conejero
PixInsight Development Team
http://pixinsight.com/

Offline Nocturnal

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Color Management trouble, TIFFs look different in PI compared to PSP
« Reply #2 on: 2008 September 06 17:55:50 »
Well luckily I saved my process container so I can see I actually did a profile conversion, not assignment:

// Start time: 2008/08/26 02:48:24 UTC
// Execution time: 2.141 s
var p = new ICCProfileTransformation;
with ( p )
{
   targetProfile = "sRGB IEC61966-2.1";
   toDefaultProfile = false;
   renderingIntent = RelativeColorimetric;
   useBlackPointCompensation = false;
   useFloatingPointTransformation = true;
}


Is the blackpoint option where it went wrong? I'll have to experiment with this some more.

Now I really wish the project concept with undo was already here :) I could retrace my steps and see where I went wrong. JPGs saved by PI with ICC profile also look very different in browsers than in PI. Something is misconfigured and I need to figure out what.
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline Nocturnal

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Color Management trouble, TIFFs look different in PI compared to PSP
« Reply #3 on: 2008 September 06 20:52:44 »
Ok, I did the following (different computer, I will redo it on the one I had trouble with as well):

- load original stacked FITS
- loaded processing icon (happened to have one without the ICC transform
- ran all processing steps again
- enabled color mgmt, proofing and gamut
- found that all profiles were already set to sRGB in color management setup so clearly no gamut problems (also changed gamut color to purple so it would stand out. Grey doesn't really stand out)
- opened profile transformation dialog which lists <*none*> sRGB xxx as it's profile which I think means it doesn't have an ICC profile. How do I tell after I load an image what it's ICC profile is? This dialog?
- rendering intent 'perceptual', no black point, yes floats.
- save result at 16 bit tiff
- load in PSP
- images look identical. Hurray!
- export to jpg from PSP works fine as well

http://gallery.tungstentech.com/main.php?g2_itemId=827

and the next one is the wide field.

I'll be recalibrating my 'good' monitor and use that profile as my default editing profile. The proof profile will be sRGB and that's what I'll convert t before publishing. Does that sound right or should I keep sRGB as the default and will colors magically get translated to the monitor profile during editing?
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline Juan Conejero

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Color Management trouble, TIFFs look different in PI compared to PSP
« Reply #4 on: 2008 September 07 11:47:48 »
Hi Sander,

Excellent, you've applied a correct workflow and you've got a correct result. Isn't it nice when the things go well? ;)

Quote
I'll be recalibrating my 'good' monitor and use that profile as my default editing profile. The proof profile will be sRGB and that's what I'll convert t before publishing. Does that sound right or should I keep sRGB as the default and will colors magically get translated to the monitor profile during editing?


That plan isn't too wrong, but it isn't correct either. This is the recommended setup:

1. After calibrating your display, select the resulting ICC profile as the monitor profile in your system. On Windows, you must select it by right-clicking on the desktop, editing screen properties, etc. (I don't remember the step-by-step procedure now, but it's easy to follow). On Linux, there is no standard system color management functionality, so PixInsight's ColorManagementSetup interface allows you to change the monitor profile.

Anyway, to make sure that your monitor is being characterized correctly, open ColorManagementSetup and verify that the correct ICC profile appears selected as the current monitor profile.

2. After image calibration, and once you have carried out the first nonlinear transformation, you must select a working color space. Since you work with raw images that don't embed an ICC profile (i.e., the response of a CCD camera can't be described with an ICC profile), this decision is arbitrary. Basically, you have two main options:

- Use the sRGB space as your working space. This has the advantage that you'll get no surprises. Everything you do is represented as what a mean PC user will see later, when you publish your final image on the web.

- Use a wide gamut space, such as Adobe RGB (1998), Apple RGB, ColorMatch RGB, Beta RGB, etc. This has the advantage that you work into a theoretical space that is much larger than the characteristic space of any output device, including any printer, any display, and of course the sRGB space. You'll be able to boost color saturation much more, and generally you'll get more vibrant colors and more shadow detail with less effort. The disadvantage is that the sRGB space, which is your final goal, can be unable to represent your images properly because you'll generate out-of-gamut pixel values. This can be a serious problem or not, depending on the kind of images you have and how you process them.

Using your monitor's profile as your working profile is, in general, a bad idea. One reason is that it is usually even smaller than the sRGB space (unless you have a high-end monitor with something like a 12-bit rendering engine and a 12-bit capable LCD panel). Using a device-specific color space as a working space is regarded as bad practice, because a device's profile doesn't correspond, in general, to any standard color space.

3. If you use a wide gamut working space, you must transform (a copy of) your image to the sRGB space prior to web deployment. This involves proofing and careful gamut checking, as we have explained. The sRGB profile must be embedded in all versions to be published on the WWW.

4. A similar step to step 3 exists for each output device you use. For example, prior to printing your image on a physical printer, you must use the printer's profile as your proofing profile to verify out-of-gamut pixels, and to preview how your image will look like once printed. Remember that a valid printing profile must characterize both the printer and the paper (or media) you're going to use.

This is more or less a basic color-managed workflow. The key of the whole system is in the profiles. Every physical device used must be accurately described by an ICC profile. If a single element fails, the entire system goes down.
Juan Conejero
PixInsight Development Team
http://pixinsight.com/

Offline Juan Conejero

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Color Management trouble, TIFFs look different in PI compared to PSP
« Reply #5 on: 2008 September 07 11:53:57 »
Ah, by the way, you have a very nice image of the Bubble. Congratulations!  :D
Juan Conejero
PixInsight Development Team
http://pixinsight.com/

Offline Nocturnal

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Color Management trouble, TIFFs look different in PI compared to PSP
« Reply #6 on: 2008 September 07 12:00:50 »
Thanks Juan, I'll try these steps tonight and let you know how it went.
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity