Author Topic: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration  (Read 2475 times)

Offline Scooot

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CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« on: 2018 November 18 04:26:23 »
If I use a DSLR with a Samyang 135mm F2 lens, together with CLS clip filter, is there any reason photometric colour calibration wouldn’t generate the correct colour balance?
Richard

Offline STEVE333

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #1 on: 2018 November 18 17:26:29 »
Hi Scooot - I used a CLS filter once and didn't like it. It was back when I was just beginning, and, maybe it was just me. However, I was never able to get good color corection (was using Photoshop at the time). It came out very Blue and I just couldn't correct it.

I changed to an IDAS LPS D1 filter and liked it very much. Was able to get good color correction with this filter.

Not much of an answer, but, the best I can do.

Steve
Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline Scooot

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #2 on: 2018 November 19 01:33:02 »
Thanks Steve,

When I use PCC I am unable to exclude saturated stars because the reading of the green & blue channel is too low for the saturation slider.
So I wondered whether PCC is meant to be used for images taken with a CLS filter.
Richard

Offline Scooot

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #3 on: 2018 November 19 02:25:31 »
Sorry, that was the wrong image. This is it showing green & blue channels below 0.2

Richard

Offline STEVE333

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #4 on: 2018 November 19 10:52:41 »
Hi Richard -

The blue background and purple stars look very familiar. That was why I didn't stay with the filter.

PCC tries to make stars have the proper color (that's my understanding). If the image you are showing is the result of having run PCC then I would say the CLS filter is the problem.

I've been running PCC on recent images taken with an IDAS LPS-V4 filter (narrow spectral bands at HA and Oiii) and the colors are coming out fine.

Wish I had better news.

Steve
Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline Scooot

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #5 on: 2018 November 19 13:05:00 »
No Steve, I haven’t run PCC yet on that image. Once I do that with background neutralisation ticked everything will look fairly normal. It’s usually quite good with a nice dark background and most stars looking quite good. That is, unless I’ve used too long an exposure for the brightest stars, in which case I’d prefer PCC to include them when assessing the colour calibration.

In order to do this, according to the Pixingsight resources help, I should reduce the saturation slider to below the readout of the lowest channel. However the read outs are too low to do this, being below 0.2, which is what the image is there to show. My guess is they’re too low because I’ve used the CLS filter, & without it the readout for all three channels of the saturated star would be fairly balanced but much higher, as per the example in the PCC resources page.

I was hoping someone could clarify if this is the case or not, and whether PCC s affected to much by use of a CLS filter.
Richard

Offline Scooot

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #6 on: 2018 November 19 13:07:53 »
I wish You could edit!

The last line of the first paragraph should say “I’d prefer a PCC to EXCLUDE them when ....”
Richard

Offline pfile

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #7 on: 2018 November 19 13:20:59 »
i think you can edit - there's a tiny little icon with a pencil and a square piece of paper (but no text) that should let you edit a post.

rob

Offline STEVE333

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #8 on: 2018 November 19 15:58:42 »
No Steve, I haven’t run PCC yet on that image. Once I do that with background neutralisation ticked everything will look fairly normal. It’s usually quite good with a nice dark background and most stars looking quite good. That is, unless I’ve used too long an exposure for the brightest stars, in which case I’d prefer PCC to include them when assessing the colour calibration.

In order to do this, according to the Pixingsight resources help, I should reduce the saturation slider to below the readout of the lowest channel. However the read outs are too low to do this, being below 0.2, which is what the image is there to show. My guess is they’re too low because I’ve used the CLS filter, & without it the readout for all three channels of the saturated star would be fairly balanced but much higher, as per the example in the PCC resources page.

I was hoping someone could clarify if this is the case or not, and whether PCC s affected to much by use of a CLS filter.

OK I think I understand. The PCC is working OK, but, some of the stars don't look very good after the PCC process.

I believe the problem may be that some of your stars are saturated. PCC won't fix saturated stars. However, there is a script named Repaired HSV Separation (found at Script/Utilities/Repair HSV Separation). Use this script before using PCC.

Here is how it works.
1) Select your stacked image then open the script.
2) Click on the OK button to run the script.
3) Open the ChannelCombination process and select the HSV Color Space.
4) Click on the little folder icon to the right of the H, Sv, and V dropdown windows and accept the default choices.
5) Click the Global apply button (round button at the bottom) to combine the channels.

This process will create a new image with the saturated stars "repaired". Sometimes it works quite well, and, maybe it will help with your saturated stars.

Hope this helps.

Steve
Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline Scooot

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #9 on: 2018 November 20 02:16:33 »
Thanks Steve,

I have a thread about HSV separation that was unresolved as well. https://pixinsight.com/forum/index.php?topic=12813.msg77949#msg77949

On this thread I’m trying to work out if I’m wasting my time using Photometric Colour Calibration to colour calibrate  if I can’t adjust the saturation threshold below the saturation level of the three RGB channels as explained in the PCC user guidance notes, see attached, and this link http://pixinsight.com/tutorials/PCC/ Which I can't if I use a CLS Filter.

I.e. how inaccurate would it be? Should I not use PCC? I guess its down to my interpretation of the results but i wondered what the Pixinsight Guros suggest.
« Last Edit: 2018 November 20 02:30:57 by Scooot »
Richard

Offline STEVE333

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #10 on: 2018 November 20 14:27:28 »
Thanks Steve,

I have a thread about HSV separation that was unresolved as well. https://pixinsight.com/forum/index.php?topic=12813.msg77949#msg77949

On this thread I’m trying to work out if I’m wasting my time using Photometric Colour Calibration to colour calibrate  if I can’t adjust the saturation threshold below the saturation level of the three RGB channels as explained in the PCC user guidance notes, see attached, and this link http://pixinsight.com/tutorials/PCC/ Which I can't if I use a CLS Filter.

I.e. how inaccurate would it be? Should I not use PCC? I guess its down to my interpretation of the results but i wondered what the Pixinsight Guros suggest.

I hadn't read through the documentation, Richard, so, I learned something from your post. Thanks for pursuing this.

I also now understand your dilemma. You can't set the Saturation threshold low enough to mark the saturated stars because the CLS filter causes the G and/or B values to be below this minimum threshold of 0.25.

Good question about will it be good enough. I believe all you could do is set the threshold at the minimum value and then give the resulting image the "eyeball test", i.e., how does it look.

Best of success in coming to an acceptable answer to your question(s).

Steve
Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline Scooot

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #11 on: 2018 November 20 16:45:34 »
[quote author=STEVE333 link=topic=12901.msg78536#msg78536 date

Good question about will it be good enough. I believe all you could do is set the threshold at the minimum value and then give the resulting image the "eyeball test", i.e., how does it look.

Best of success in coming to an acceptable answer to your question(s).

Steve
[/quote]

That won’t work unfortunately because it will think all the other stars are saturated and will exclude those as well. I’ve been using it by moving the threshold below the red level and the results seem ok but I don’t know whether that actually works or not.
Richard

Offline STEVE333

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #12 on: 2018 November 20 17:11:36 »
[quote author=STEVE333 link=topic=12901.msg78536#msg78536 date

Good question about will it be good enough. I believe all you could do is set the threshold at the minimum value and then give the resulting image the "eyeball test", i.e., how does it look.

Best of success in coming to an acceptable answer to your question(s).

Steve

That won’t work unfortunately because it will think all the other stars are saturated and will exclude those as well. I’ve been using it by moving the threshold below the red level and the results seem ok but I don’t know whether that actually works or not.
[/quote]

You can always go back to the BackgroundNeutralization/ColorCalibration approach.

Steve
Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline STEVE333

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #13 on: 2018 November 20 22:10:06 »
Richard - New thought:

I looked at the Tool Tip that pops up when you put the cursor over the Saturation threshold input box. It says that only stars with an R,G or B value LARGER than the threshold will be marked as saturated (and excluded from being used to do the color calibration).

I believe this means that PCC can be used with your CLS filter. The fact that the G/B channels have low values won't cause those stars to be excluded. Only stars with values of R, G or B larger than the threshold will be excluded.

I hope I'm understanding this correctly.

Steve

Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline Scooot

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Re: CLS Filter & Photometric Colour Calibration
« Reply #14 on: 2018 November 21 00:45:08 »
Yes you’re correct only values higher will be excluded. So I want this saturated star to be excluded because it’s inclusion will supposedly muck up the colour balance. I can’t exclude it because I can’t reduce the threshold far enough.

Red is 0.8248 blue is 0.1827 green is 0.1225. So I need to reduce the saturation slider to below 0.1225 to ensure PCC doesn’t include this star in the colour balance calculation.

Having said that I’m only assuming this star is saturated because I can see it when the image is unstretched & linear. If I showed you a crop of the star without the Stf activated you’d see a big red blob.
« Last Edit: 2018 November 21 04:02:52 by Scooot »
Richard