Author Topic: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP  (Read 2973 times)

Offline STEVE333

  • PixInsight Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
    • sk-images
Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« on: 2018 October 17 11:25:25 »
I've just started using an IDAS LPS-V1 filter to help with my high LP (Light Pollution). I image with a Canon T3 and was wondering if the new OPT Triad filter or the Cyclops Duo-Band filter would provide any significant improvements. This started me down the road to calculating the various noise sources in my images to see what effect either of these filters would have on the noise in the collected images.

After having reviewed some of the "noise analysis" articles it became clear that there are three main sources of noise in AP images:
  • Read Noise
  • Dark Current Noise
  • Sky Glow Noise

If anyone is interested I can describe the procedure for calculating these noise sources (using PI) based on 2 Bias images, 2 Dark Frame images, and, 2 Light images (Light images must be registered to one another).

The result of the analysis is the following equation:

S/N(t) = SQRT[T/{(RN^2)/t + DCcps + SGcps}]

where
  • T = total exposure time (sec)
  • RN = Read Noise (counts)
  • t = subframe exposure time, i.e., exposure time for each image (sec)
  • DCcps = Dark Current (counts/sec)
  • SGcps = Sky Glow (counts/sec)

This equation calculates the relative Signal-to-Noise of the integrated image (all images stacked) for a total exposure time of T (sec) when a sub exposure time of t (sec) is used. In other words, if T = 12000 sec (200 min) and t = 600 sec, then the equation will calculate the S/N for the summation of 12000/600 = 60 images.

For my Camera/Filter/Telescope/LP combination the result is (for an arbitrary total exposure time of 200 min) for the Red channel:
S/N(t) = SQRT[12000/{(15.77^2)/t + 1.13 + 34.8}]

A plot of the above equation is shown in the first image below.

One of the benefits of this graph is that it helps determine the proper Sub-Frame exposure time. This graph shows that Sub-Frame exposures of 120 sec or greater will produce the same final stacked result. Thus any exposure of 120 sec or greater would be acceptable for optimum S/N. This is the best technique I know for determining your best subframe exposure time.

With the above equation I can now determine whether one of the "dual band" filters would provide any improvement in stacked image S/N. The OPT filter will reduce the bandpass for the Ha signal from 18 nm for the LPS-V4 filter to 3 nm. This is a reduction of a factor of 6. This would reduce SGcps by a factor of 6. This changes the above equation to

S/N(t) = SQRT[12000/{(15.77^2)/t + 1.13 + 34.8/6}]

A plot of this equation is shown in the second image below.

Two points are clear:
1) The sub frame time needs to be increased to at least 420 sec to achieve optimum S/N, and,
2) The optimal stacked S/N has increased by about a factor of 2.2! Good news. Looks like the filter will definitely help.

The same analysis for the Green and Blue channels isn't as spectacular because their spectral passband is only reduced by about a factor of 3. However, the improvement still looks encouraging.

This has been a fun little trip into noise analysis. It has convinced me that either of the new dual-band filters would significantly increase my stacked image S/N.

Also, because the Sky Glow dominates my noise (even with one of the dual-band filters), a cooled camera would not provide any significant reduction in noise because the Dark Current noise is insignificant compared to the Sky Glow noise.

All in all this has been an enlightening adventure.

Comments welcomed.

Thanks for looking.

Steve
Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline pfile

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Jedi Grand Master
  • ********
  • Posts: 4729
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #1 on: 2018 October 17 12:52:17 »
i can't speak to the theory of it at all, but i know that switching to a cooled mono camera vs. uncooled DSLR changed everything for me, even though this is a bortle red zone (and perhaps white.)

my feeling is that the faint target signal that's left after subtracting skyglow is lost to the dark signal in the uncooled camera but is still present with the cooled camera.

i'm sure a big part of it was mono vs. OSC but my uncooled results even with a narrow Ha filter left a lot to be desired with the DSLR.

rob

Offline STEVE333

  • PixInsight Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
    • sk-images
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #2 on: 2018 October 17 13:32:53 »
Thanks Rob. Nothing like first hand experience!

I wish I knew the reason for the difference between the DSLR and cooled camera performances with the Ha filter. In the meantime I'll keep an open mind.

Steve
Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline RickS

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Jedi
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #3 on: 2018 October 17 15:24:53 »
Hi Steve,

I don't have time to look through this in detail right now but I'll try to check it out this evening.  I do have one question... you are measuring everything in counts.  Do you mean you are taking raw ADU numbers from the subs?  Or are you using the camera gain to convert into units of electrons?  If you're not working in e- I think you'll find the results are incorrect.

Cheers,
Rick.

Offline STEVE333

  • PixInsight Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
    • sk-images
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #4 on: 2018 October 17 16:00:41 »
Hi Rick -

First, thanks for taking the time to respond.

I am doing everything in counts.

Because DSLR's are known to "mess with" the baseline values of subs I decided to just measure the noise directly. I use Pixelmath to subtract two images (for example 2 Bias images) using the following RGB/K expression:

      Bias1 + 0.1 - Bias2

I add the 0.1 to prevent any negative numbers. I look at this Difference image using the Statistics process (with the 14-bit setting to match my camera) to determine the StdDev for the R/G/B channels. This is what I've been referring to as the "noise".

Hope this makes sense.

Steve

Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline sharkmelley

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
    • Mark Shelley Astrophotography
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #5 on: 2018 October 17 17:47:09 »
Quote from: STEVE333
I am doing everything in counts.

I'm not sure what is the meaning of "count".  For the formula to work, your units must be electrons.  So the digital values coming from the raw file need converting into electrons using the gain.

Also when subtracting two exposures to measure noise, remember to divided by sqrt(2).  Otherwise your calculated noise will no longer be in electrons.

Mark
Takahashi Epsilon 180ED
H-alpha modified Sony A7S
http://www.markshelley.co.uk/Astronomy/

Offline RickS

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Jedi
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #6 on: 2018 October 17 17:51:19 »
I was halfway through typing this when Mark responded.  I think it's still helpful...

Hi Steve,

The DarkBiasNoiseEstimator script is a good way to get a robust estimate of read noise from a pair of bias files.

You really do need to do the calculations in units of electrons for signal and noise.  I'll give you a simple example: camera with a gain of 0.5e-/ADU and a pixel that detects 100 photons and collects 100 electrons.  Only considering shot noise for simplicity, the SNR for this pixel is 100/sqrt(100) = 10.  The count that you would read from the camera is 100/0.5 = 200 ADU.  If you do the same calculation using ADU you get a SNR of approx 14.14 which is, unfortunately, wrong.

You're on the right track but I suspect your calculations may need some tweaking.

Cheers,
Rick.

Offline STEVE333

  • PixInsight Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
    • sk-images
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #7 on: 2018 October 17 22:25:58 »
Quote from: STEVE333
I am doing everything in counts.

I'm not sure what is the meaning of "count".  For the formula to work, your units must be electrons.  So the digital values coming from the raw file need converting into electrons using the gain.

Also when subtracting two exposures to measure noise, remember to divided by sqrt(2).  Otherwise your calculated noise will no longer be in electrons.

Mark

Thanks Mark -

I agree with the sqrt(2) and have been doing that.

I must admit that, for my purposes, I don't think converting to e- is necessary. I do agree that the calculated SNR will change when calculations are done in e- rather than counts. However, I'm not really interested in an absolute SNR. I'm looking for the ratio of SNR values computed for two different NB filters with different spectral bandwidths (for example 60nm vs 18nm). If I calculate the SNR for both spectral bands and then take the ratio of the two SNR values, all calculated using counts, and then repeat the same calculations using e- values in place of the counts, I believe the ratio of the two SNR values will be identical. It is only because I'm interested in the ratio that the conversion to e- isn't necessary.

Don't know if you agree, but, it makes sense to me. Hope I'm right.

However, I'm still willing to be shown that using e- is necessary even when the ratio.

Steve



Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline sharkmelley

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
    • Mark Shelley Astrophotography
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #8 on: 2018 October 18 22:31:13 »
Quote from: STEVE333
If I calculate the SNR for both spectral bands and then take the ratio of the two SNR values, all calculated using counts, and then repeat the same calculations using e- values in place of the counts, I believe the ratio of the two SNR values will be identical. It is only because I'm interested in the ratio that the conversion to e- isn't necessary.

Sorry - your belief is incorrect and you can actually prove it to yourself by actually scaling your numbers.
   
It might make a small difference or it might make a big difference - it depends on how close to unity gain your existing data is.

Mark
Takahashi Epsilon 180ED
H-alpha modified Sony A7S
http://www.markshelley.co.uk/Astronomy/

Offline STEVE333

  • PixInsight Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
    • sk-images
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #9 on: 2018 October 20 12:58:43 »
Thanks all for your comments/suggestions.

I went back and redid the calculations including the e-/ADU corrections. The resulting image SNR as well as the Read Noise, Dark Current, and, Sky Glow values are all changed as several of you pointed out.

However:
  • Even though the calculated SNR values have changed, the shape of the Relative Signal-to-Noise vs Sub Exposure curves are unaffected! This means the curves with or without the conversion to e- values can still be used to determine your optimum subframe exposure.
  • The SNR improvement factor when the filter bandwidth is reduced is also unaffected. This means calculations to determine how much a new filter would help are still accurate whether the curves are done with ADU or with e-.
  • I mention all of this because it is not always easy to find or calculate the e-/ADU value for your camera whereas ADU values are available from many of the image processing programs.
Best regards,

Steve
Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline RickS

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Jedi
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #10 on: 2018 October 20 14:15:29 »
I mention all of this because it is not always easy to find or calculate the e-/ADU value for your camera

It's actually quite easy.  All you need is a pair of bias frames, a pair of flats and a short and a long dark.  Plug them into the BasicCCDParameters script and it will estimate gain, read noise, dark current and full well capacity.  All very useful parameters to know...

Offline RickS

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Jedi
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #11 on: 2018 October 20 14:21:43 »
Also, because the Sky Glow dominates my noise (even with one of the dual-band filters), a cooled camera would not provide any significant reduction in noise because the Dark Current noise is insignificant compared to the Sky Glow noise.

A cooled camera may not reduce total noise significantly but it will allow you to remove the dark current (not noise, but unwanted signal) from your lights more accurately.  One of the big benefits of a cooled camera is just being able to keep the sensor temperature constant.

Offline STEVE333

  • PixInsight Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
    • sk-images
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #12 on: 2018 October 20 15:35:35 »
Also, because the Sky Glow dominates my noise (even with one of the dual-band filters), a cooled camera would not provide any significant reduction in noise because the Dark Current noise is insignificant compared to the Sky Glow noise.

A cooled camera may not reduce total noise significantly but it will allow you to remove the dark current (not noise, but unwanted signal) from your lights more accurately.  One of the big benefits of a cooled camera is just being able to keep the sensor temperature constant.
A constant temperature would definitely be a plus.
Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline STEVE333

  • PixInsight Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
    • sk-images
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #13 on: 2018 October 20 15:37:06 »
I mention all of this because it is not always easy to find or calculate the e-/ADU value for your camera

It's actually quite easy.  All you need is a pair of bias frames, a pair of flats and a short and a long dark.  Plug them into the BasicCCDParameters script and it will estimate gain, read noise, dark current and full well capacity.  All very useful parameters to know...
Thanks Rick - I wasn't familiar with that nice Script.

Steve
Telescopes:  WO Star71 ii, ES ED102 CF
Camera:  Canon T3 (modified)
Filters:  IDAS LPS-D1, Triad Tri-Band, STC Duo-Narrowband
Mount:  CEM40 EC
Software:  BYEOS, PHD2, PixInsight

http://www.SteveKing.Pictures/

Offline RickS

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Jedi
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
Re: Calculating DSLR Noise Sources Including LP
« Reply #14 on: 2018 October 20 16:18:00 »
Thanks Rick - I wasn't familiar with that nice Script

Glad I could help, Steve.  I have just been through the process of characterising a couple of new CMOS cameras.