Author Topic: Having trouble with compound light pollution gradients  (Read 6662 times)

Offline bulrichl

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Re: Having trouble with compound light pollution gradients
« Reply #30 on: 2018 February 02 09:20:50 »
That's a fine result. I am probably not the only one who is curious about how you dealt with the issue of the uneven background. Would you tell us what led to success in the end?

Bernd

Offline ngc1535

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Re: Having trouble with compound light pollution gradients
« Reply #31 on: 2018 February 02 18:55:33 »
++ Bernd's reply.
I would be interested to know if any part of what I wrote was relevant!
-adam

Offline macnmotion

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Re: Having trouble with compound light pollution gradients
« Reply #32 on: 2018 February 02 19:28:08 »
Hi guys,

I processed the L differently from the RGB. The L suffered more from light pollution than RGB.

For the L:

1) Once (based on our discussion here) I discovered that I needed to use different flats (taken a week apart) for the Lums that were taken during that week, just about all of the dust motes disappeared. Only the various light pollution gradients remained.

2) The very densely packed DBE suggested here was used on the L stack (and later on the RGB stacks). Of course I took the time to make sure no point was on a star or galaxy. I've never used such a densely packed DBE before, I've seen recommendations that less is better, however this really helped with the gradients.

3) After noise reduction on L (TVGDenoise, MMT), I was left with some "rivers" of darker background areas amidst the mostly even background. I've had this happen before after noise reduction with our light polluted skies. So I applied a noise floor to the background. I analyzed the K value in the even portion of the background, created a new sub with this gray level, added gaussian noise approximating the remaining noise level in the L stack, and applied in PixelMath using a Max() function (protecting galaxies and stars as their signal was brighter than the background). This eliminated the darker background rivers. Of course this technique wouldn't be very useful if there was nebulosity or IFN in the background, but in our case there was neither to worry about. Having a more level background level allowed a better stretch. If you try this technique, you have to be very careful in PixelMath not to overwrite signal. Here is a basic formula (I was working with values for the multiplier to the 10,000th decimal place to fine tune the exact moment the noise floor was too much): Max(Lum_image, NoiseFloor_image * .0092).

Here is a sequence showing you three images. Left (super stretched) shows the dark rivers after standard PI denoising. Center (super stretched) shows the same image after adding the noise floor. Right (standard stretch) shows the result after one more round of denoising in PI. This image was now ready for histogram stretching.



4) Stretched three times, once each for core, middle and outer arms of the galaxy, then used masks in Photoshop to combine them, bringing out high dynamic range of the galaxy.

Note: I had originally employed deconvolution before HistT, however deconvolution created too much of a contrast within the galaxy dust lanes. I'm guessing that this was due to the small size of the galaxy, there wasn't enough pixel range to create a smooth transition in deconvolution - I ended up with posterized dust lanes that looked like a cartoon. So I left out linear sharpening and did targeted sharpening at the end of all processing using Franzis (Photoshop plugin).

Here is a before/after deconvolution (this posterization appeared with even as few as 10 iterations using a PSF):



For RGB, I didn't need to worry about noise floors. DBE (densely packed) and noise reduction did a decent job. However because this was such a low surface brightness object, and in our worst direction (North), the noise was more than standard denoising in PI could handle (at least in my hands). Pushing through, I was left with an RGB combination where noise was causing terrible stray colors within the galaxy. Nonlinear denoise couldn't take care of this. So instead I stretched without first denoising. This left much more natural and smoother colors in RGB and the noise was much more even colored. I took this to Photoshop where I used Franzis denoise, and this really cleaned it up. Back to PI to push saturation, then combine with the L and finish processing.

Note: I originally used standard color calibration (backgroundneutralization, colorcalibration, SCNR), but later I went back and tried PhotometricColorCalibration. Photometric worked a lot better on our image.
« Last Edit: 2018 February 02 23:37:26 by macnmotion »

Offline pfile

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Re: Having trouble with compound light pollution gradients
« Reply #33 on: 2018 February 02 19:51:43 »
very nice, i like the noise addition technique.

IMO fewer samples are better if your gradients are "well behaved" but in situations where you have really complex gradients, placing a zillion points can really work magic. i think Alejandro Tombolini had even shown a case where he was able to remove the "dog ears" from an image that had been integrated from multiple rotation angles. when i saw that i was completely stunned - he had 100s of points in each corner covering the dogears.

i was thinking about this the other day and between StarGenerator and ImageSolver one should be able to write a script that moves DBE samples off of bright stars automatically. so you could just tell DBE to auto-generate samples and then use the script to move or delete samples on top of stars. unfortunately though i think this would be OTA dependent as probably the star profiles would be different depending on the system, and definitely different due to differences in seeing.

rob

Offline ngc1535

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Re: Having trouble with compound light pollution gradients
« Reply #34 on: 2018 February 02 21:36:46 »


i was thinking about this the other day and between StarGenerator and ImageSolver one should be able to write a script that moves DBE samples off of bright stars automatically. so you could just tell DBE to auto-generate samples and then use the script to move or delete samples on top of stars. unfortunately though i think this would be OTA dependent as probably the star profiles would be different depending on the system, and definitely different due to differences in seeing.

rob

This is a GREAT idea. I don't know why it would be dependent on the optics? If you use a binarized structure map (MLT kind of thing... ) Might be tough in crowded fields. Of course an implementation of sextractor would do the job too.

Concerning the reduction of background weirdness... one thing that can reduce the number of samples is to take advantage of any symmetries that might be present. In some cases, you can go from 100 samples to 4 and have the same result!

-adam

Offline pfile

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Re: Having trouble with compound light pollution gradients
« Reply #35 on: 2018 February 02 21:48:33 »
i think at least the width of the filters would give you different star profiles, right? tighter stars with narrow filters. it seems to me that it's always the wide 'tails' of the brighter stars that get picked up as false background, so it might suffice to move samples off of just the brighter stars. then again a dim star could be entirely mistaken for background... anyway once i started thinking about it i realized how difficult the heuristic would be, since you don't want to nudge the sample onto another star... it could be quite involved (but on the other hand maybe it is just recursion...)

by symmetries do you mean using the DBE axial symmetry control?

rob

Offline msmythers

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Re: Having trouble with compound light pollution gradients
« Reply #36 on: 2018 February 02 22:26:03 »
rob

I remember that crazy rotated image that Alejandro fixed with like 4000 samples. I can't find it now but I did find another where he used over 2500 samples. https://pixinsight.com/forum/index.php?topic=6927.msg46982#msg46982 I've looked at other similar posting where Alejandro is tackling strong gradients and he uses a smoothing factor of 0 in DBE.

It's good to go back from time to time and look at Alejandro's postings if nothing else for a refresher in DBE :smiley:


Mike

Offline ngc1535

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Re: Having trouble with compound light pollution gradients
« Reply #37 on: 2018 February 02 23:25:23 »


by symmetries do you mean using the DBE axial symmetry control?

rob

Yes, identify symmetries in the problem artifact- and use symmetry controls to do a majority of the work.
Sometimes removing the symmetric stuff first... followed by a smaller set of generated (or placed) samples can work very well.
(As I showed at AIC, a simple example is an over correction of the center of the field and under correcting the vignetting...yielding a terrible donut-like thing. In this case, yes axial symmetry comes to the rescue.)

Offline bulrichl

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Re: Having trouble with compound light pollution gradients
« Reply #38 on: 2018 February 03 01:55:05 »
Thank you, Mac, for your detailed description. Thanks as well to all other contributers to this thread. It contains a great deal of suggestions for image processing that are new for me (noise addition, hints to the proper application of DBE).

Bernd

Offline macnmotion

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Re: Having trouble with compound light pollution gradients
« Reply #39 on: 2018 February 03 06:09:34 »
I agree, this has been a great learning experience. Great discussions and contributions.

Andy