Author Topic: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God  (Read 6132 times)

Offline rodmichael

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NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« on: 2017 July 09 12:52:07 »
I am posting my first attempt at Astrophotography and photo processing with PixInsight 1.8 (Ripley).  This represents only my first stretch with the Histogram Transformation tool (that's how far I am in the Tutorial #2, PI-6).  All pre-processing and post-processing has been accomplished with PI.  In spite of the rigor of the software, it is really a great piece of work.  Thanks to the PI team.  They truly have to be imagers to have developed such a useful tool.

I am eager for critical assessment of this first effort by all you experts.  I began capturing light fames of various DSOs in March this year.  Since that time I have been trouble-shooting every aspect of equipment and software for capture of appropriate frames.  The learning curve has been quite a bit steeper than I had imagined.

I began capturing light from NGC 6960 in mid-June, actually the Eastern Veil (NGC 6992-3) first.  I am in the midst of post-processing those frames as well and I am starting to capture Pickering's Triangle to complete the Veil nebula for now.
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #1 on: 2017 July 09 15:16:37 »
That is truly a very nice image - for a beginner just starting out in the world of astroimaging. Sure, there are several steps that could be taken to improve the image, but the unprocessed data suggests that you have certainly worked hard to get this far,

Before anyone starts piling on advice, perhaps you could let us know what your raw image set consisted of, what your equipment was, which processes you have implemented thus far, and in which order (including your pre-processing, image calibration, steps).

Keep up the good work!
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #2 on: 2017 July 09 15:36:25 »
Thanks for the very nice comments. Yours is indeed high praise from a recognizable name in this activity.

I am glad to provide information:
Equipment:
   Astrograph: Celestron RASA, 11", f2.22
   Imaging camera:  QSI 683WS-5
   Filters:  Astrodon SHO 5nm
   Mount:  Celestron CGX
   Guide Camera:  SX Lodestar X2
   Guidescope:  Orion Shorttube 80mm
   Guide software:  Stark Labs PHD2
   Acquisition Software:  SGP
   Pre-processing:  PI using pre-processing batch script with default settings
   Post-Processing:  PI including script for multi-channel synthesis using the SHO-AIP process (SHO = RGB), dynamic crop, fast-rotation, ABE modelization, background neutralization, color calibration, and histogram transformation (for HT used auto STF and then fine tuned).  That's where I am in the tutorial.  I plan on starting PI-7 in Tutorial #2 to continue fine-tuning the image.

Exposure information:
   Total exposure: 6.33h
   Frames:  Total =38 x 600s each (about 7 different nights)
   Light Frames:  SII=12; Ha=13; OIII=13
   Dark Frames:  36 x 600s each
   Bias Frames:  35
   Flat Frames:  75 (25 each filter) using Aurora flatfield device
   Camera Temperature:  -22C
   Binning:  1x1
   
Is that what you were looking for?

Thanks again for the nice compliment.
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #3 on: 2017 July 09 15:54:51 »
Exactly - a well-documented summary of the umage acquisition and processing phases. You learn as much from that as anything else! Apart from anything else, it means that you can go nack over your efforts ans see where 'new knowledge' might help improve matters at earlier points in the process.

Hopefully you will also find a method to store, and document the Processes and Scripts that you are using (by saving Process Icons, Process History and full PixInsight sessions - all with meaningful names, and using the user-comments field that have been provided to allow you to add notes to the processes that you have used, perhaps reminding you why you chose to use the parameters that you did use). Don't forget to save interim Images either - especially those that were used as masks (along with the processing history that was used to create the images in the first place - that is a crucial step, that can often be overlooked).

It can also be useful, when Cropping an image for example, to first use Dynamic Crop Process to get things where you want them to be, and to then transfer the 'dynamic' variables over to a 'Static' Crop Process which can be easier to re-implement at a later date.

Sometimes it is these little things that don't make it into the 'big tutorials' !

I am looking forward to seeing your results after you drop down the small-scale, low-SNR noise (most of which initially seems to be 'Luminance' noise rather than 'Chrominance' noise - but that can be difficult to analyse and identify from a compressed JPEG-type image aimed for display on the Web). Just don't try 'too hard' - less can often be more when it comes to noise removal.

Have fun  :)
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline rdryfoos

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #4 on: 2017 July 13 16:58:43 »
Great first attempt.  Try using SCNR green set to Average neutral to start--that should turn the green to gold--or ruddy.  Also--a bit of TGV denoise would suit this image well.  Extract a lum and use that as local support.  Set TGV denoise to RGB and start with a setting of 2.0 (first slider) and 2.0 (second slider).  Start with a -4 for the second slider.  You may not see much of an effect so you may have to switch to -3.  Its trial and error.  The goal is to use the minimum amount of noise control to achieve the desired effect.  This will smooth out the background and the nebula will pop.

great image.  Do you like the RASA?  I have the C11Edge and love it.
Rodd

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #5 on: 2017 July 13 17:08:32 »
Great first attempt.  Try using SCNR green set to Average neutral to start--that should turn the green to gold--or ruddy.  Also--a bit of TGV denoise would suit this image well.  Extract a lum and use that as local support.  Set TGV denoise to RGB and start with a setting of 2.0 (first slider) and 2.0 (second slider).  Start with a -4 for the second slider.  You may not see much of an effect so you may have to switch to -3.  Its trial and error.  The goal is to use the minimum amount of noise control to achieve the desired effect.  This will smooth out the background and the nebula will pop.

great image.  Do you like the RASA?  I have the C11Edge and love it.
Rodd

rdryfoos, THANKS, but I'm afraid much of what you've suggested is falling on deaf ears (or blind eyes).  I'm just starting the PI tutorial #2 which largely deals with NR in the non-linear image.  But I'm not there yet, wherever "there" is.  The processes you are referring to, I guess, must be for use in the non-linear image.  I'll keep them at the top of my list as I "progress."  I may come back to you in a later post.  Off to Denver this weekend so probably won't be doing much with this until Sunday or Monday.

BTW, I'm not educated enough to comment too knowledgeably about the RASA.  My comparative baseline is meager (a C8 with a wedge and Alt-Az mount x 38 years).  So the whole new setup is much an improvement.  The RASA and CGX seem to work OK.  But I'm still struggling with the whole complexity of the system, the pain of guiding and tracking error, and the jargon and rigor of PI.  Wish me luck.
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #6 on: 2017 July 13 17:16:05 »
...I am looking forward to seeing your results after you drop down the small-scale, low-SNR noise (most of which initially seems to be 'Luminance' noise rather than 'Chrominance' noise - but that can be difficult to analyse and identify from a compressed JPEG-type image aimed for display on the Web). Just don't try 'too hard' - less can often be more when it comes to noise removal.

Have fun  :)

Pardon my ignorance, Niall, but I don't have the slightest idea what you mean when you say "...after you drop down the small-scale, low-SNR noise...".  Can you please explain?  Thanks!!
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline rdryfoos

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #7 on: 2017 July 13 17:40:15 »
Don't worry about it--I know exactly what you mean.  It took me a LONG TIME to get to the portion of the learning curve that was flat enough for me to not walk on all 4s!  Between the mount and scope, and acquisition software, and guiding, and polar alignment, not to mention the weather, there is allot besides processing that one must master. I have yet to learn autofocus, or some of the more sophisticated tools in maxim DL (I have SGP too--but I'd have to learn something new!).  learning new things at this point takes time away from imaging, which I just can't seem to accept.

Keep up the good work and don't hesitate to ask questions.  ask allot of questions!  As you progress, you will find that the devil is in the details.  Often times a so so image will transform into a fabulous image with the slightest adjustment of a few settings. 
Rodd

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #8 on: 2017 July 15 07:10:22 »
Quote
I don't have the slightest idea what you mean when you say "...after you drop down the small-scale, low-SNR noise...".

The 'c;assic' approach to astro-image processing is based on looking at the image as 'the sum of its parts' abd, at the very simplest of levels, every single pixel on the image can be considered as not only having an x and y coordinate, and some form of intensity coordinate, but also to be part of 'another x- y world' where one axis is often used to denpte 'scale' and the other is used to denote 'brightness'.

So, at diagonally opposite corners of this new x-y area we have very bright and very large object - such as the cores of galaxies, etc. And in the other corner we might find the 'background' of the image - containing no stars, just other very dim 'noise' with little or no sense of 'object'.

Taking the analogy further, and moving along the 'brightness' or 'intensity' axis we see the 'sclae' of objects increase. This might be where we would expect to find dim gaseous nebulosity, before we finally 'turn the corner' and see the brightness of this kind of nebulosity increase as we head beack to that first corner that I described.

Of course, if you 'turn the corner again, you remain with high intensity image data, dropping from very large objects down to very small objects - and these, of course, would be the 'stars' in an image.

And, making the last turn, you head back down the 'small scale' axis, reducing intensity as you, until you finally get back down into the world of non-descript 'background noise'.

Hopefully, you might now be able to visualise where your image might be capable of some improvement - it is in this area of small-scale (i.e. no discernible structurs'), low-level (.e. 'faint') noise.

And the trick here is to either lower the intensity-level even fursther, or to change the structure-size so that you can't even really make it out in the first place. And, doing all of this without affecting the remainder of your image (remember, astro-imaging is just like juggling with running chainsaws, it becomes easier with practice - and plenty of bandages!!).

The noise that I was referring to is that 'speckle' that you see when you zoom right in on the fainter areas of the image - think about trying to knock any 'colour' out of this - or aim to leave the colour just on the blue side of a neutral grey (this is down to personal prefeence, of course - but at least try and mute the reds and greens, especially the greens - hence the SCNR Process). Also, imaginne if you could 'blur' the whole of this noise section - smoothing it out if you want to thinks of it that way. Your image might then look more 'glossy' - but, don't overdo things, there is nothing quite as unpleasant as an 'artificially washed out' image, so try to keep things in proportion to how the foreground of your image appears.

I hope my explanation helps, and gives you some ideas to experiment with.
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #9 on: 2017 July 25 19:24:27 »
My imaging system has been down (CGX mount failed) for the past 3 weeks, so I have been spending some time with my first images and with PI to see if I can improve a bit.  This is my latest rendition of NGC 6960, this time in CFHT (HOS = RGB) palette.  I have used Warren Keller's recommended workflow for NB images and I hope I have furthered my abilities with PI.  I believe this photo has more "pop" with greater color contrasts and better noise reduction.  I think I like the colors better.  Critique welcome.
« Last Edit: 2017 July 25 19:37:38 by rodmichael »
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline RickS

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #10 on: 2017 July 25 20:25:56 »
The nebula pops better in the new version but the stars are also more prominent.  Perhaps a star mask and MorphologicalTransformation/Erosion to dial them down a little?  I'm not a huge fan of either colour scheme, especially the green, but that's just personal taste.

Cheers,
Rick.

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #11 on: 2017 July 26 03:57:17 »
The nebula pops better in the new version but the stars are also more prominent.  Perhaps a star mask and MorphologicalTransformation/Erosion to dial them down a little?  I'm not a huge fan of either colour scheme, especially the green, but that's just personal taste.

Cheers,
Rick.
Do you just mean the stars are brighter or do you mean they're somehow bloated or larger?  They seem to be about the same in size when I compare the images.

You especially don't like the lime-green (CHFT palette [HOS]) or the blue-green (Hubble palette [SHO])?

I'll try the MT/E and see if it improves anything.

Thanks!
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline rdryfoos

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #12 on: 2017 July 26 04:19:44 »
The stars are not bigger--but they are allot brighter.  NB is false coplor anyway, so the palette is personal choice.  Personally I do not like green in my images (except for teh rare PN that has greenish hues).  In teh Hubble Palette I always knock the green down with SCNR (average neutral).  But that's personal--the image looks pretty good in other respects.
Rodd

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #13 on: 2017 July 26 04:35:24 »
Thanks.  I understand the personal choice element regarding color selection and assignment.  But I'm a bit interested in the idea of perhaps some "natural" correlation of color assignment.  It is said that the CFHT palette may have such a more natural correlation except for the assignment of SII to blue when SII radiation is really more red than Ha in the color spectrum.  So I have presumed that others may think a bit the same way to some degree, i.e., perhaps preferring to arrive at some color scheme that may have some relationship to reality and not simply an aesthetic choice..

When I first tried the palette in this image, it almost seemed like a Quentin Tarantino comic book selection in terms of the bright colors.  It seemed difficult to think of this color scheme as having some natural correlation.  But then I started to notice that nebular structure (e.g., Ha (red) vs OIII (green) and the colors in between) seems better defined, contrasted, and more visible than in the SHO palette.  I like the better definition and contrast.  I'm still not sure I'm sold on the bright colors, but I like the better contrast and definition.

I did some experimenting with morphological transformation to reduce "prominence" of stars.  There is a difference, but the difference seems only slight to high minimal in magnitude.  I had to go to some extreme in getting this result, using "Morphological Selection" and 10 iterations with an "amount" of 1.0 and a "selection" factor of 0.1.  Just to see if the tool was doing anything at all I tried a selection factor of 1.0 and got great big bloated stars.
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline rdryfoos

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #14 on: 2017 July 26 04:46:39 »
Somewhere on here there was a pixel math formula that is supposed to mimic the visual palette quite closely.  I can never remember it though-- it is something like

Red: 85%SII and 15%Ha
Green: 85% OIIIO and 15% Ha
Blue OIII

Something like that--there are only 3 filters and 3 colors and I still can never remember the percentages!  The above is wrong--but it is similar.  The use of Ha is restricted.  But then if you use Ha for a luminance you get the structure.   Anyway--in teh tutorials and in images I have seen it does look quite natural
Rodd