Radical idea to encourage PCL-PJSR development

N

Nocturnal

Well-known member
I don't think this will fly but I'll put it out there anyway. PCL and PJSR development is serious business. PCL development in general has a high barrier to entry. I think only Carlos and I have delivered PCL code outside the Pteam. Starting PCL programming takes a considerable investment in time and right now there's no payoff. Minor payments such as those done by Astro Photo Insight for articles don't come close to being true compensation for effort but it's a 'nice to have' for sure.

So here are some options:

- module store ala app store. Doesn't have to be integrated into PI, a web page would be fine. Module and script writers submit their code to Juan and set a price. Juan can choose to take a cut (ala app store). This is especially reasonable in the case of PCL modules as he'd have to provide the multi platform build infrastructure. Price can be set to '0' or 'donate'. PCL would need some sort of license feature added that ties a downloaded module to a PI license. App store does not have to be run by Pleiades as long as a build infrastructure is available.

- Juan starts paying for PCL and PJSR submissions. Negotiations are up to the author. Further options are an upfront licensing fee good 'forever' with negotiable mainentance and feature update fees.

- private licensing. Individual module authors can institute their own license keys.  This results in lots of repetition so I don't think this is advisable but clearly every module author can decide to do this.

Anyway, I think the lure of 'fame and glory' only goes so far. At some point people want to see some acknowledgement that others value their work and are willing to pay for it. With such an optional system in place I think more people will attempt to develop for PI.

Have at it :)
 
Hi

I don't think the idea of paying for a 3rd party mod is to far out there, People happily pay for photoshop plug ins :D

But personally I don't think this is the problem , its just people like me are not skilled at this and the number of PI user who can is very limited

So sander put up some mods and I will buy them ( probably )



Harry
 
Well I wrote the debayer module and it needs work to support better debayering methods. I wrote the profile module and I'm not sure I want to just give it away. It took a lot of effort :) Then there's the bad pixel and column repair module I want to write. I already make this available for free but the effort to port it from 'regular' C++ to PCL is non-trivial. Then there's the image stacking train that everyone wants but no one is writing. I don't have much incentive as I can use DSS on windows. Even if I decide I want PI to stack I'll simply have DSS create calibrated and registered images and combine those with PI. So in that case a monetary award for writing such a much desired module might give someone an incentive to tackle that project.
 
Hi Sander/Harry

I agree with you. At the current state of "business", Pleiades Astrophoto S.L. is a one man (or family) company. Sure, things are improving a lot, but there is not enough profit yet for a second programmer to be hired (and I already sent my application :D). So, selling modules would be a very nice incentive for people like me, that are financially limited, but in that scenario may dedicate more hours into development. Perhaps the time is coming to start this...

What do you people think about this topic? Would you pay for a single new module? Or gain access to a 3rd party developer?

Also, remember that with the new distribution system, users may add 3rd party sites, so, new modules or updates may easily propagate.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this topic.
 
Could new modules be introduced in the same way as PixInsight? That is, with a 45-day trial license?

What about long-term support, and subsequent license-fee charges for upgrades?

We all know that Juan makes very little 'money' out of this (I think he even had to buy his Lear Jet second-hand, on eBay) - would other 'individual programmers' be as generous?

What kind of costs would we be talking about here? $10 per module? $100?

It doesn't take too long before the consumer thinks "Do I really need that 'extra' buzzer or bell?", so the price and support has to match the PI philosophy if it is likely to stand any chance of success.

I have no objection whatsoever to individuals being rewarded for their efforts, but I would HATE to see the world of PI becoming 'commercialised' - very much to the point where I would 'walk away' from PI if it happened.

Cheers,
 
Hi Carlos,

I know I would pay for a module I thought would be worth the money :) That's alwas what it is about, right? In my case I would think something like "is that module worth $x or should I write it myself? Or can I do without it?". Here's a small side benefit of this strategy: these third party modules would need to be documented! Gasp! Examples of their use need to demonstrate the benefits you'd gain! All of this should be easily accessible before and after buying the module! :)

Hi Niall,

despite appearances to the contrary, PI -is- a commercial application. Every module and script developer is welcome to give their products away. That would remain true. Some will choose to pick a symbolic price like $5 for a module or script, others may want $50 or even more. Clearly a market economy will quickly dictate what reasonable prices are. I'm under no illusion that if I asked $10 for my debayer module that a) everyone would get it and b) that the total revenue would even approach my costs for writing it. Still, it would be 'nice'. Sure, there should be a trial license and the module would need to be supported. If a module is not worth the money (bugs that don't get fixed etc.) a developer would quickly have problems on his hands and wouldn't sell anymore.
 
Hi Sander :)

Yes, documentation is a must. Also, even for free, we should get the habit of writing the documentation :D
The problem is time... as always. And I'm getting a phase in my life where I need to dedicate that time to things that make money (not that I wanna be rich... just to maintain myself), so I have to choose between something that puts food on my table, and something that I really like, but is not going to feed me (at least in the short-term). So, selling modules, for a small fee, would be great for me, 'cause that way I can justify the time I spend doing that job (hey, after all, it is hard work! maybe not physically, but there are lots of hours invested in one single process).

Niall, I agree with you that I don't want PI to become "commercialised". This is not the spirit in this "poll". But, just as Juan made his decision to live up from PI's gains, why can't be others that earn something for their work on the project, and partially make the living out of this? Sure, it would be great if were hired by Juan, but this is not going to happen soon ;)

So, bottom line... I think that this thread is great to see what you all think, and if you may support other developers (for a small fee). This is not about taking advantage of the platform, but to justify all the hours we put on it, more than the gratification (that is great).
 
Hi Carlos,

while I don't think Juan will hire 'us' I think the option where Juan buys module source code is also a viable one. We'd essentially be like contractors. Magazine publishers pay their authors a fee, this can be similar.
 
All points noted Sander - and accepted as being perfectly valid.

As Devil's Advocate >:D , my next question would be "Should there be an element of 'Royalties' payable back to the PI development team, for any author of a PCL module - after all, their code would be, more or less, 'useless' without the PI backbone?

If so, then how does THAT get policed?

What if a particular module then has enough merit and following to deserve to be included 'within' the Standard Distribution package?

And, as someone who has not yet mastered the art of writing their own PCL code (even though I possibly could), am I then 'discriminated against', financially, because I can only compose in PJSR - an environment that CANNOT be turned 'commercial', simply because there is no way to impose 'control' on the distribution of what is ostensibly 'plain text' scripting?

Please, do NOT misunderstand me here - I am all for the continuing development of 'our world', but not 'by any means' or 'at any cost'. I certainly AM concerned that an alternative revenue stream might 'dilute' the overall concept of PI and I would like to see any such development happen in some way that this dilution does not, or cannot, happen.

Perhaps Plaeides Astrophoto has to have the final say on the commercial viability of any add-on, I don't know. Of course, there is NOTHING that can actually stop - for example - 'you' selling 'me' a copy of your next arithmagical algorithm that works with my copy of PI to solve the insolvable. You make me an offer, I agree, you sell, I buy. Juan need never know. But, have we violated any terms of agreement by 'using' Juan's 'core' code 'commercially', without his permission or agreement?

There is no doubt that this could be a can of worms, even though they may all be small ones, with enough fish and birds round about to make short shrift of them. But, I do think - as you have rightly suggested - that we all need to read the label very carefully before we grab that ring-pull . . . .

Cheers,
 
Nocturnal said:
while I don't think Juan will hire 'us' I think the option where Juan buys module source code is also a viable one
Click to expand...

Is there not a statement to that effect on the main PixInsight website, associated with PCL development, whereby Plaeides will offer 'one full commercial licence' to any author of a PCL module that is subsequently integrated into the standard distribution package?

I certainly remember reading something to that effect, once upon a time. It may still be present.

In which case Juan may therefore be quite willing to 'hire' the services of any capable programmer.

We need the feedback/input from others - at the moment it seems that this is only being discussed 'openly' by the likes of 'us' - folks who have too much time on their hands, and plenty to say when given that amount of free time to say it  ;) :laugh:

What do OTHERS think - not just us 'old hands', but the likes of those who have just started to 'enjoy' the power of PI, those who have grasped the fundamentals, but who can still remember the trepidation as their fingers hovered over the 'PAY' button when their trial license period expired. Are they ready to spend again?

I am fortunate, I have the ability (hopefully) to understand clearly what a new module would offer me. I could make contact with the author and be fully aware of any limitations beore I even downloaded the trial version. And I could therefore easily justify the expense where necessary.

But, others may not have that ability.

However, minor commercial 'upgrades' at this stage in the life of PI might help predict what will eventually happen as v2.x draws closer - a time when Juan will surely have to decide whether he 'has to' consider a financial burden on making that upgrade. He has talked about it before - and I don't think anybody would grudge him that reward - given all the 'free upgrades' that we have enjoyed to date.

It is definitely an interesting topic of discussion.

Cheers,
 
AFAIK, Juan always had the idea of 3rd party developers doing modules, and selling them if they want (and no fee was menctioned then, for copyrights regarding the use of the PCL).

Now, with the new (upcoming) distribution system, one easy/logical way to go is to "sell" access for a given amount of time to a repository. Then, is up to the maintaining developer what he offers (one or many modules).
 
I'm not sure I understand the problem.

If I develop a PCL module and decide to sell it on my web site, I'd do just that. I'm assuming the PCL license allows me to do that.

If the suggestion is to build some sort of repository, a-la app store, that's fine, but I don't think that's the problem here.

As for paying Pleiades Software some royalties, if such app store is hosted and managed by Pleiades Software, it might make sense - you'd be paying for your right to have your products in the store. Otherwise, if I write a module and sell it on my website, with all due respects, I don't think paying royalties makes sense. I would certainly oppose the idea.

So whomever feels like writing some stuff and would like to charge for it, well, just go for it. It might give you enough $$ for your morning coffee or you might not sell a thing  ;D
 
Hi,

Just to say that I need to read this thread with calm and enough time to produce a useful answer. It's not that I'm ignoring it; it's that I am digesting it :)
 
Just to throw one more idea on the table -

How about getting some of the vendors to sponsor these plugins?  $1000 gets you a 40x40px logo on the plugin?  Or something along those lines?  Maybe this is not in the spirit of the thread...but I figured I'd throw it out there...

-dave
 
As far as I am concerned, I would not mind to pay for modules that I find useful, or to be payed for modules that I write. But I see at least 2 problems:

1. Much of the "spirit" of the PI forum is based on the "pro bono" work of volunteers. This spirit can quickly evaporate if PI becomes too commercial. (Niall, just imagine you would want to charge for the work you are doing here...)

2. I dont see that anyone can earn more than some pocket money from this. Considering the number of average hits that an article in this forum has, PI probably has 40-100 active users. Assume 20% are buying a module for $10, you would earn $80-$200. At typical daily rates between $200-$800 per day in the software industry, that would at most pay for 1 day of work...

AFAIK, I would rather prefer to continue in the mode that I did in the past, without having to go through the complications of going commercial (which also has implications regarding tax and liability). I would continue writing modules that I find interesting, distribute them for free. For this, I provide no guarantees, and the level of documentation/quality/support that I find adequate or am able to provide. And I am paid by the fun, mainly...

Just my 2 cents,

Georg
 
Niall, just imagine you would want to charge for the work you are doing here
Click to expand...

Georg,

I'm not actually doing any work here - I just get other people, like Juan, to do it for me!! (But, please, don't tell my wife - she thinks that I have VERY IMPORTANT work to attend to when I lock myself away in my study for hours on end!!!)
 
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