Author Topic: Theli an PI Channel Combination  (Read 4069 times)

Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #15 on: 2017 February 12 02:29:51 »
Your settings are correct. You have to apply them *before* loading the foreign FITS files. Don't remember to reset them to their default state after loading these images, or you won't load FITS images generated by PixInsight correctly.
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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #16 on: 2017 February 12 02:46:53 »
Regarding the initial posts in this thread, just a quick remainder of three important facts:

- This is PixInsight Forum, not a general astrophotography forum where you can talk freely of anything.

- This is professional software development: I need to sell licenses to pay the invoices. PixInsight exists and will exist exclusively if we can sell licenses; nobody helps us economically at all.

- Competing applications are not my friends. The developers of competing commercial applications are not my friends. The developers of competing freeware or open-source applications are not my friends. I respect them and I hope they'll respect me, but we are competing and will be competing. It would be nice if we'd collaborate, work together, share experiences, etc, but unfortunately this is not how things are.

There are thousands of hard work hours and lots of hope behind PixInsight and its tools. I understand that this is a hobby for you, and that's great, I hope PixInsight will help you to enjoy it much more. But please understand that I am not here to enjoy hearing how you prefer using other software applications instead of PixInsight, especially when they offer nothing more or better than PixInsight. Please respect my work and the work of other developers that have created and create PixInsight, that's all I ask for.
Juan Conejero
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Offline Lateralus

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #17 on: 2017 February 12 03:02:15 »
Your settings are correct. You have to apply them *before* loading the foreign FITS files. Don't remember to reset them to their default state after loading these images, or you won't load FITS images generated by PixInsight correctly.

Of course I aplied those settings before loading the FITS files.  ;)
I even restarted PI, still does not solve the issue for me.


Offline frasax

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #18 on: 2017 February 12 04:03:06 »
Regarding the initial posts in this thread, just a quick remainder of three important facts:

- This is PixInsight Forum, not a general astrophotography forum where you can talk freely of anything.

- This is professional software development: I need to sell licenses to pay the invoices. PixInsight exists and will exist exclusively if we can sell licenses; nobody helps us economically at all.

- Competing applications are not my friends. The developers of competing commercial applications are not my friends. The developers of competing freeware or open-source applications are not my friends. I respect them and I hope they'll respect me, but we are competing and will be competing. It would be nice if we'd collaborate, work together, share experiences, etc, but unfortunately this is not how things are.

There are thousands of hard work hours and lots of hope behind PixInsight and its tools. I understand that this is a hobby for you, and that's great, I hope PixInsight will help you to enjoy it much more. But please understand that I am not here to enjoy hearing how you prefer using other software applications instead of PixInsight, especially when they offer nothing more or better than PixInsight. Please respect my work and the work of other developers that have created and create PixInsight, that's all I ask for.

Hi Juan,

My (our) Problem is not e general Problem of Astrophotography, it´s a problem that is specific in PI. So i thought it´s the best to ask this question here.

I respect the fact that you need to sell licenses. Guess what, i´ve buyed one, telling everyone what a great peace of Software PI is. And you are getting personal on the fact, that i also use other softwares?

I´m not into Software Development so i can´t say anything about competition between developers. A fact is: Theli was never written for Amateurastrophotographers. It was supposed to used by professionals who either way use the professional softwares which are implemented in Theli (Astromatics Tools). So no competition at all! Just a bunch of people from Austria and Germany tried working with Theli a couple of years ago, and some did succesfully while many failed. When PI Core came out almost everyone of those guys switched over to PI! PI destroyed a vivid Community of a minority of astrophotographers. Some of them are giving PI workshops today:-) So come on what is your problem? I did a Workshop about Theli at CEDIC in 2013. 15 people sitting there. A day later Vicent did a PI Workshop with 150 people. Still not satisfied?

The Author of Theli is a nice guy. You want some collaboration? Did you ever asked him?

As far as i know,most of the PI user will also work with Photoshop. You don´t like to hear this either? Well then you have a lot of work to do.
Concerning Theli: Just offer some B-V Calibration and a registration based on Star Catalogs and i´m yours! :-)

Back to topic:

I do have three color channels, already background substracted and Color Calibrated. All i need is to combine them in a 1:1:1 ratio. That works in all other softwares except for PI. Who, if not you could help us with this problem? I suspect the FITS Format, and so do you. If you do don´t want to investigate on this because you don´t like me, fine:-) But i hope you jump over your own shadow.

CS Frank

Offline tommy_h

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #19 on: 2017 February 12 06:16:47 »
Hi Frank

Theli does not modify the RGB-files during color calibration but stores a calibration factor in the Fits-header (for example: COLORFAC=       1.097 / Colour calibration factor ).
But PixInsight ignores this entry in the Fits-header.

1. You can apply this Color calibration factor with PixelMath manually to each file and then do ChannelCombination

 or

2. Use the Freeware Fitswork to combine the R, G and B files. Fitswork use the COLORFAC entry in the Fits-header

CS
Thomas

Offline frasax

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #20 on: 2017 February 12 06:40:56 »
Hi Thomas,

thank you very much for your answer. This explains everything.

CS Frank

Offline Lateralus

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #21 on: 2017 February 12 07:08:05 »
Hi Thomas,

I don't think this is the right answer. This was also my first guess, so I have set the scaling factor manually to 1.000 in all 3 channels and the result in eg MaximDL is exactly the same compared to the images with the right COLORFAC values. You can write anything into those values, the result after channel combination is always the same image. At least in MaximDL, have not tried it out in FITSWORK.

However I think the answer to this mistery might be the way PI treats negative numbers, or maybe it would be more fair to say: "they way different software handles negative values". After all, the 3 channel-FITS files from Theli contain negative values.

  • MaximDL just ignores negative values (if I don't do some magic), so the image is clipped.
  • PI rescales the image so at least nothing is clipped.

Beeing a software developer for over 20 years I would say both are valid concepts, both have advantages and disadvantages.
With MaximDL the color balance is kept, but information is lost forever. With PI color balance is lost, but all the data is there (except for the color calibration). Pick your poison.


BR,
Michael

Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #22 on: 2017 February 13 04:30:43 »
Frank,

Let me analyze your original post:

Quote
i use Theli for my data reduction, and start imageprocessing with already color calibrated Fits Files, out of Theli.
The Channel Combination always fails, and produces very bad looking RGB Images, with totally wrong colors. It seems like PI interprets the Fits Files somehow wrong.

What happens here is that Theli is generating FITS files incompatible with PixInsight. Have you asked the author of Theli why his application is not compatible with PixInsight? Have you asked him about the possibility to modify his application, in order to make it compatible with PixInsight, perhaps as an option?

You have a problem with data generated by a competing application that you prefer to use, ignoring what PixInsight has to offer, since that would mean a change in your workflow. Therefore, since Theli can't be wrong (of course), PixInsight must be wrong (of course), so your problem with a competing application becomes our problem. That's not fair.

PixInsight is a powerful, open-source development platform available to any interested developer on four operating systems. We have thousands of commercial users around the world in 90 countries. PixInsight is the result of a very hard work during more than 15 years to build a strong product, despite the fact that the environment has been, and still is, against it. I'm sorry if we have "destroyed" a vivid Theli community, but this is business and we have to sell licenses to live and to maintain this project alive. No, we haven't asked the author of Theli if he wants to work on PixInsight.

It is wrong to say that Theli makes "no competition at all" for us. Any application that provides similar tools or solutions to PixInsight competes with PixInsight in a small market niche. If those applications are being used instead of PixInsight, even partially, or even occasionally, they are eroding our future survival options. In the case of freeware and open-source applications, the situation is much worse because we cannot compete with them in price terms.

There are almost daily comments like "Is PI worth the $$$?" on other forums and communities. From the beginning of our business, we defined our commercial license in a way that makes PixInsight an extremely cost-effective solution:

- With a single license, you are allowed to install the application on any machine you own, on four different platforms.

- With a single license, you have lifetime free access to all application updates (ie, no additional cost since 2008).

- PixInsight costs less than a single good eyepiece. The price tag is not comparable to any single vital element of your imaging equipment.

- PixInsight has been designed specifically for astrophotography with tools that fit the particular needs of the astrophotographer.

- PixInsight is an open, cross-platform, modular development platform, with a much more advanced, efficient and versatile architecture than any application in our competition, where the development of creativity is consistently promoted through knowledge and analysis.

We know that the above statements make PixInsight apart from the competition. We know the strength of our product and, as a business, we don't need and don't care about any opinion that assigns a problem by default to our product. This forum is not devoted to that type of discussions, especially if they are about competing products. Please solve your problems with Theli in its corresponding forum or with its support service.

Back on the topic, the problem you are having with these images is very easy to solve in PixInsight. PixInsight expects floating point data in the [0,1] range by default. Since these images use a different range (which is unknown and undocumented, BTW), you have to define a custom default input range of floating point data in the FITS Format Preferences dialog. If the data have negative values, define a negative lower bound. For example, something like [-100,1000] should be more than sufficient, judging from the frames that have been uploaded in this thread, but you'll have to make tests to be sure. The custom range has to be sufficiently large to accommodate all of the input images you want to import. You could ask the author of Theli about the output ranges employed by his application; if he can provide you with a consistent range, you can use it on a regular basis to import that data in PixInsight. Otherwise you'll have to guess and make tests each time.

These interoperability problems are a consequence of using an obsolete file format, which comes from the age of punched cards and magnetic tapes, in the 21st Century. You could ask him to support XISF, an open format that we have created and developed in PixInsight, where all of these problems cannot happen.

So as you see, PixInsight is flexible enough as to import these frames that you have created with another application. Other applications, maybe including Theli, are not equally flexible. You'd have gotten this answer from me the other day, if instead of accusing us of being "wrong" without any basis, you had uploaded a sample of these images just asking how to open them correctly in PixInsight, without putting other products and "third party applications" in our face.
Juan Conejero
PixInsight Development Team
http://pixinsight.com/

Offline frasax

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #23 on: 2017 February 13 06:10:26 »
Never Mind Juan,

i will do so.

Have a nice day.


Offline copello

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #24 on: 2017 February 13 13:44:49 »
Hello Frank,

I can completely understand Juan's point of view and before you start arguing please:
1.) First download the THELI code and see that it is a more or less a (deprecated)
    QT3 gui wrapper combined with bash and awk scripts which are employing the http://www.astromatic.net
    tools. From a software engineering/design point view, it is terribly designed and several modules (e.g. Imalyzer) are even broken.
1.1) Users of THELI are still waiting for a (more or less trivial) update to QT > 3   
2.) Go to https://github.com/PixInsight/PCL, study the clean and brilliant design of PixInsight and compare it to THELI.

If you ever worked as a software developer/engineer and:
1.) Developed for 4 platforms (on how many platforms is THELI, Maxim-DL, etc.. running)?
2.) Designed and implemented a complete new image specification such as XISF.
3.) Whenever, somebody reports a bug which is reproducible it is fixed within days.
4.) Designed and implemented a JavaScript Runtime framework, so other users can contribute and provide scripts.
5.) ....

I could go on and on....

Really, please look at all these facts and then you hopefully see statements such as:

Quote
The Channel Combination always fails, and produces very bad looking RGB Images, with totally wrong colors. It seems like PI interprets the Fits Files somehow wrong.

are not based on knowledge and facts.

One more thing, just to understand what I am taking about: Grab e.g. a copy of the book: "Deblurring Images: Matrices, Spectra, and Filtering" and try to implement (e.g. first in octave/matlab)
some of the deblurring algorithms. You will see how tricky that actually is (convergence, numerical stability, etc..).
Now implement the algorithms in C++ and port them to 4 platforms (however without silly #ifdef ...#endif statements).

I also used THELI for a while, but once you discover and understand the power and strength of PixInsight (also from astronomical and mathematical viewpoint) there are strong reasons from my point of view
of using the full and bullet prof pipe line of PixInsight for processing astroimaging data.

Best,
 Thomas

Offline frasax

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #25 on: 2017 February 14 05:39:11 »
Hello Thomas, Hello Juan,

i´ve slept about what you wrote, and i will give some answers.

I see now, that my first Posting was very unlucky, because my formulation sounds like i´m blaming PI for working wrong, but it is not.

Many apologies for that, that was totally not my Intention. My words werent choosen well, and from that perspective i can understand parts of Juans reaction.
I´d rather should have asked why my data is differently treat by different softwares. And i´m sure the answer is interesting not only for me, beside the fact that i use Theli or not.

In my earlier postings i´ve also said, that i really like PI and have full respect for its developer. I´ve used PixInsight already way back, when it was called PI LE. I´ve buyed my Core License a couple of years ago, but never worked seriously with it, until now. I´ve watched hundreds of Videos, buyed Warrens Book and i´m really curious about the Software Package. Also my latest pictures were partly processed in PI, and i´m very Happy with that. So, to say it clear again: I´m a Fan of your Software.

What i didn´t liked was the way Juan reacted. Again, even from the perspective that i used totally wrong words, to describe my problem, Juans reaction was for me, very angry, almost personal and disrespectful. If someone uses phrases like "not my friend" over and over again, than i reply: Yes, and you are not my friend either.
Maybe Juan got things wrong, and maybe i got things wrong. Well it is like it is now.

For me two things are important:

1. i like to choose whatever software i use by myself. I don´t need to tell someone the reasons why i use specific software. It is my personal choice and no one elses. If you´d ask me, i will tell you the reasons, but still this is only my business. Especially because it is just my Hobby.

2. Someone elses buisness is not my business, because i have to pay my biils and run my own business. So we all have to carry our packet.

@Thomas: Yes i agree, my initial posting was not based on knowledge and facts. As i said above this is a big misunderstanding, and i´ve caused that because my words werent choosen wisely. BUT: Anyway i´m allowed to have no Knowledge:-) As Juan said, it´s just my Hobby. My Knowledge about Mathematics is just OK to write my bills, my program language skills are not more than two command lines in Basic which i´ve learned as a Kid. I´m not an astronomer and i´m not a Software Developer. Yet i´m allowed to work with this softwares and expect an outcome. And based on the quality of this outcome i choose my tools to work with. That does not mean, that i don´t want to learn about whats going on, but i will never get the full knowledge, because i´m not an engineer.

When i´ve started digital Astrophotography in 2006 i´ve tried very fast different free to use Softwares, and i was not satisfied with the results. Thats why i´ve choosed Theli, way back when PIxInsight was still in its beginnings. Meanwhile PIxInsight became (quiet rightly) THE Standart for astronomical imageprocessing. And believe it or not, last week i´ve considered seriously to quit with Theli and start completly with PI. Two things holding me back, first of all i´m just used to my workflow, and i need to learn a new one. 2nd i´m missing at least two things in PI, one is the star catalog the other the B-V color calibration. But there are workarounds for both.

Concerning Theli, yes it is not up do date, and honestly i don´t know if it will become in the future. Mischa is busy with his Job and Family, and i think the Time for Theli is over. I´ve talked to some users and sooner or later they will all switch to PI.

Lots of Words and i could go on and on. I hope my point of view is somehow understandable.

CS Frank




Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #26 on: 2017 February 14 06:43:01 »
Hi Frank,

Sorry for my, how to say, somewhat too vehement answer to your first post. Hey, don't be surprised, I'm Spanish, after all! :D

Jokes apart, don't worry at all. Things are hard when you're in charge of a project as big as PixInsight, and sometimes it's hard to keep your cool. It was a mistake on my part. I hope you enjoy PixInsight, and I also hope to be able to continue building a useful platform for you all.
Juan Conejero
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http://pixinsight.com/

Offline frasax

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Re: Theli an PI Channel Combination
« Reply #27 on: 2017 February 14 06:58:51 »
Hola Juan,

its all cool now, thanks for your answer.

CS Frank