Author Topic: We need documentation!  (Read 9774 times)

Offline georg.viehoever

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We need documentation!
« on: 2013 December 05 01:26:04 »
I am kind go tired seeing all those questions about the basics PI and image processing in this forum, things like

- correct setting for RAW format
- Color casts (->color calibration)
- STF vs. histogram transform
- applying the same process to multiple images
- tuning StarAlignment parameters
-....

How about writing a book about the basic of astronomical image processing, with tutorials on doing it in PI (and maybe some other suitable software)?

Georg
Georg (6 inch Newton, unmodified Canon EOS40D+80D, unguided EQ5 mount)

Offline FunTomas

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #1 on: 2013 December 05 03:42:16 »
That sounds interesting.

Offline pfile

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #2 on: 2013 December 05 08:50:45 »
well i have long thought about doing this but i am a terrible writer, don't necessarily have the authority to do it and to do it right would be an incredible amount of work. just one process could fill an entire book!

rob

Offline bitli

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #3 on: 2013 December 05 08:55:00 »
Georg,
You assume that somebody would actually read the book before asking a question here.
An optimistic point of view IMHO.
-- bitli


Offline Andres.Pozo

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #4 on: 2013 December 05 09:12:41 »
I think a FAQ section in the forums would be very helpful. Sometime ago there was a wiki for PixInsight where the FAQ could have been hosted, but it disappeared.

Offline Harry page

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #5 on: 2013 December 05 12:34:20 »
Hi

A book would be very nice , but would be a huge commitment for someone  :o

But A " newbies start here" section might be  a good idea with pointers of where to look for info( vids written tuts etc) and or basic information

Not quite a Wiki but with user input ( keep things concise as some thread here are very long)

Regards

Harry
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Offline NGC7789

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #6 on: 2013 December 05 12:40:39 »
And that newbie section in many cases would only need to be pinned threads from the forum.

How does one get a thread pinned anyway? I've seen several that I've felt ought to be pinned.

Offline cdesselles

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #7 on: 2013 December 05 12:49:00 »
Harry:

Your YouTube videos are the best documents for "newbies" like myself that I've come across.  Excellently done.  If you take them in order, they even sort of produce a coherent workflow for future use. It is that lack of a suggested workflow that I think is what baffles most newcomers to PI.  That and a lack of explanation of some of the parameters and settings that should be applied rather than defaults.  If the default setting doesn't work, you are relegated to trial and error to figure out what to do.  Reading the flyover texts for each button helps, but only if you understand the technobabble that soem of them are written in.  Some are easy to understand, some are written in an alien exo-language.   :-[
« Last Edit: 2013 December 05 12:55:49 by cdesselles »
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Offline georg.viehoever

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #8 on: 2013 December 07 12:15:00 »
I may be kind of old fashioned, but I still like written documentation. I believe there are people who prefer "learning by doing", others like videos, and others like reading documents.

When following the forum, I am so tired of answering the same questions again and again, such as
- correct RAW settings
- STF vs. HTF
- creating/saving/loading process icons
- setting up StarAlignment so that it actually aligns
- linear vs. non-linear
- how do process containers work
- ....
I could probably continue for quite a while. I know that those questions are from entirely different categories, some are very basic, some are advanced. But even after following this forum for years, I have the feeling that I am missing some of the powers of PI because I just dont know some of its tricks. As an example: how is anyone supposed to discover without hints that it is possible to transfer the zoom level of one image to another by dragging/dropping the tabs onto each other. Certainly not by accident, and not by coming across the one or two messages in the forum that mention this.

Would it be possible to find a dedicated group of people writing such a book? Does it need to be a commercial endever, or would be an open sourced book/wiki/PDF be the way to go? Would the PTeam contribute? Has someone else other useful ideas?

Georg
Georg (6 inch Newton, unmodified Canon EOS40D+80D, unguided EQ5 mount)

Offline NGC7789

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #9 on: 2013 December 07 13:53:15 »
Perhaps a wiki is the way to go. With good peer review and lots of authors it wouldn't take so long to accumulate a valuable resource. While I'm no expert I could see contributing content. For me the main obstacle is that my computer is so slow that generating meaningful screen shots can take longer than writing the text.

Offline Geoff

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #10 on: 2013 December 07 14:43:09 »
Yes, I think that in the first instance a wiki is the quickest way to get things moving. A book would be a big effort that would (optimistically) take at least two years to appear. Additionally, a wiki could provide the basis for a future book. I suspect also that various members of the PI team would be unable to resist contributing to a wiki.
Geoff
« Last Edit: 2013 December 07 14:53:40 by Geoff »
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Offline Harry page

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #11 on: 2013 December 07 15:03:53 »
Hi All

There was a few years ago  a attempt at a wiki here , which was not overlay successful  :-[ and it was taken down

IMO I do not think it will work well and we need better more concise information , I need to think about this hard

and offer alternatives as I do not wish to be seen as " Ney doer "

Kind regards

Harry
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Offline FunTomas

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #12 on: 2013 December 08 00:02:58 »
...As an example: how is anyone supposed to discover without hints that it is possible to transfer the zoom level of one image to another by dragging/dropping the tabs onto each other. Certainly not by accident, and not by coming across the one or two messages in the forum that mention this....
I belong to this group of users. Is there another hidden feature?

Offline georg.viehoever

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #13 on: 2013 December 08 00:59:35 »
...IMO I do not think it will work well and we need better more concise information , I need to think about this hard and offer alternatives as I do not wish to be seen as " Ney doer "
Hi Harry,

your videos did more for popularizing PI than any other single effort. This was and is a fantastic approach to teaching the basics, and I can only hope that Juan one day will invite you to his private island (you have to see his private relativistic space cruiser first, though)  ;) . But while videos are good for teaching certain procedures, they are essentially useless for teaching people about accelerator keys or the fine points of setting up RAW imports.

I think the wiki failed because we did not have a central editor (wikis tend towards chaos if nobody "manages" them), and because the markup language was a major obstacle for many who wanted to contribute. Not sure how to get around this.

Maybe others with more experience on web based documentation projects can comment.

Georg
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Offline sctall

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Re: We need documentation!
« Reply #14 on: 2013 December 10 09:56:01 »
OK, Here's the thing.

When I started imaging, I had no idea what I was doing. In a period of 3 months I learned I need to take many images, flat, darks, bias. Started to understand this, and then start hearing about "flat darks, and other names so same things.
My point is with me I dove right into this, realizing I had be doing it all wrong.  So I joined a Yahoo group, where people taught me all this about taking many different types of subs.  That was daunting enough.( especially flats, still is).  After I had a few images, maybe only 4 or 5 subjects, I used DSS to do all the ( everything it does to get the final stacked image). I read the documentation, but really did not get all of what was really going on. Just knew if I setup with these parameters, It turned out pretty good.  I fight a lot of LP. After using DSS ( which is a great product by the way ) for a couple months, I started to hear about other products, mainly "Images Plus" and "Pixinsight". After corresponding with several users of both, I decided to go with PI. (Dang glad I did too).
For me, either one would be a learning curve. But I was particularly interested in the DBE and other noise reduction features. Did not know how they worked just heard they do.
OK, All this being said, I had no experience, in what integrating, calibrating, stacking, aligning, etc. really was all about. Remember DSS just did it. No real understanding of what an image consisted of.
But I was up for a challenge. So Before I took the trial, I went to Harry's sight ,and you tube, and watched a lot of videos. I was very impressed. So I started the trial.
The problem was nowhere in the videos, did it ever really explain, if you use a DLSR, this is how the image science behind that works. ( meaning bayering-debayering, RAW format, etc). What integrating, calibrating, aligning, stacking, etc. really does. For PI this is needed info.
So once I had it, I started reading all the forums, but I have to say, I was lost most of the time, because I just could not follow the conversations.
But, over the last few months, I have received invaluable info, from those like ( pfile rob, and others). I am sure he has figured out, I did not know much about imaging at all when I started this. But his patience has really helped to try to grasp this.
This is new stuff, a science in itself, and I have to say PI does not pull any punches.
As far a the basic questions, this is to be expected, because we just don't all start out as intermediate imagers and processers.

But I can certainly say, that using PI, will educate you pretty fast. But there is so much to learn.
A good example is Pixel Math (what I see as one very powerful tool), but if you are not an engineer( and I don't see why you need to be to be an astrophotographer), then you may be taken aback by the scripting language needed to use it.
I am barely a scripter, so I at least understand a formula when I see it, But I still cannot, look at my screen and say I want to do this , using this and this, and know what formula to put in the command line to get it.
I think for me, the lack of immediate local documentation is an issue.  But I have learned to find it on other sites by now.
Everyone is different, in the knowledge base, and everyone will have different questions that need to be answered.
I cannot even begin to comprehend some of this yet.
It would have helped me to of had much more imaging experience before I began this, but I am not one to back away from a challenge.
 But Georg, there is just no way for many of us to know what you and others already know and take for granted about this science.
As far as your above issues, I have read the documentation on a lot of it, but if I don't understand the science behind much of it  ie: correct RAW settings, how am I going to know what works for me? Another is linear vs non-linear, I knew the difference, but did not really know why a process would or would not work with it. That's just the way it is.
This is why the questions are asked.
One thing I will mention, is many times I try to use the search to see if I can find a previous thread on a subject, but I have to say for me the search has not been helpful on many instances. So I find myself just asking a question.

I do not have an advanced setup to work with, but that is how I want it for now.
This software has allowed me to create images I never thought I could ever achieve.
And I know there is a whole lot more I can do with them, I just need time to learn them and experiment with them.
I have only been doing this since this last April. And using PI since last July.
Most sites that encourage PI, mention , a steep learning curve. No kidding!!!!.

Scott
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