Author Topic: NEWBIE STF AND SAVES..HELP!  (Read 4939 times)

Offline pmesquita

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NEWBIE STF AND SAVES..HELP!
« on: 2012 November 19 04:13:23 »
Hello all,

Iv'e been dwelling with PI this entire weekend and the 1st atempt went well and I was able to fully work and process a 10x5" M42 quite nicely, with the stpe by step help of Harry's videos.

Then I went to my second attempt (22x25") and things got really confusing (maybe my 52 year old brain has too many bad sectors on its hard drive).

I went through the entire process twice and for some reason when I saved as .fit all my finished steps when I reopened them I couldn't view with STF what i had done (I know that what I save is not what I see with STF).

Is I keep doing something very stupid: to see what I'm doing...I press the Auto button on STF. Of course this takes me to a very light and noise image (like the initial one after the first STF I applied on this specific process. And if I want to go ahead O have to tune the STF...all over again. Besides this, I suspect I'm losing or destroyng data at each tampering with teh STF auto button.

I have a few desperate questions:
1 - is there a button that automaticaly makes the original image be seen again on the beginning of each fase as the Image I was seeing on the last STF window (the final image at the end of the previous fase)?

2 - is there a point in the process where I can definitely save the image in .fit... but star seeing it automatically in the next fase as in STF? (1-align and Integration/2- STF/3 - DBE/4 - Color Calibration/5 - Histogram Transformation/ 6 - HDR Wavelets/ 7 - ACDNR/ 8 - Masked saturation boost)

3 - as I mentioned on the 1st M42 all went well. At fase 6 - HDR wavelets - I was getting the same results the ones on the masks on Harry's videos. But on this second M42 process...the effect of harry step by step doens't happen to the image I apply it to. the image just stays the same....and it's a pity since on my 1st M42 there was a lot of detail showing up on the whitish core of M42 with the wavelet tool.
I wonder if it's that I'm using the wrong tool. I found out there's a HDRMultiscale Transform both under Wavelets and Multiscaling Processing (same icon) I tried both and no wavelets gain. But on my 1st M42 it did transform after I followed Harry's steps.

4 - I found out - on my second M42,  that on Color Calibration and especailly on ACDNR...the negative mask that shows up to protecet some areas of noise reduction...appears all white!!! On my 1st M42 this didn't happen. I still am able to do the ACDNR properly but it's really weird since the preview wnidow Is select has both dark sky and the almost white M42 core.


Can someone kindly explain (as if I were very stupid...starting to doubt myself) how to overcome these 4 issues.

Btw...the 1st M42 (10x5") at ISO 400 on a modded Canon 600D came out quite nice. I couldn't believe my eyes...:-))))

cheers
paulo
« Last Edit: 2012 November 19 09:38:40 by pmesquita »
Old astronomers don't die. They move to darker skies - Anonymous.

Offline sreilly

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Re: NEWBIE STF AND SAVES..HELP!
« Reply #1 on: 2012 November 19 04:59:40 »
You need to realize that the STF tool only changes the screen display and does not alter any image data. As hard drive space is extremely cheap, I always keep my original data intact separately and  save the image as it progresses. An example of this would be: M81-luminance-1.fit would be an original image saved in the original folder while M81-luminance-1_c.fit would be saved as the calibrated same image. Star aligning all the M-81 luminance images would be denoted with a _r after each image so now I have M81-luminance-1_c_r.fit. Stacking of all the registered images results in an image such as M81-22-luminance.fit indicating that the combined image is made of 22 calibrated and registered M-81 luminance images. This preserves the original data. Only then do I do any image processing steps to the combined image such as Dynamic Background Extraction, cropping, histogram stretching and so on. And then I have names such as M81-22-luminance_c_dbe-hst and so on to describe the processes already used. Of course you would do all processes that require linear data before using HST and some other processes. I haven't made use of the procedure but you can also save all your steps suing the "Save Project" feature which is a complete record of everything done to your image enabling you to go back to any point in processing and make changes.

Quote
2 - is there a point in the process where I can definitely save the image in .fit... but star seeing it automatically in the next phase as in STF? (1-align and Integration/2- STF/3 - DBE/4 - Color Calibration/5 - Histogram Transformation/ 6 - HDR Wavelets/ 7 - ACDNR/ 8 - Masked saturation boost)

As noted above, you can save the image anywhere you want along the process. One thing I would point out with the above series of processing is the use of HDRW after histogram stretching as HDRW works with linear data and should be done prior to HST.

Quote
3 - as I mentioned on the 1st M42 all went well. At phase 6 - HDR wavelets - I was getting the same results the ones on the masks on Harry's videos. But on this second M42 process...the effect of harry step by step doesn't happen to the image I apply it to. the image just stays the same....and it's a pity since on my 1st M42 there was a lot of detail showing up on the whitish core of M42 with the wavelet tool.
I wonder if it's that I'm using the wrong tool. I found out there's a HDRMultiscale Transform both under Wavelets and Multiscaling Processing (same icon) I tried both and no wavelets gain. But on my 1st M42 it did transform after I followed Harry's steps.

This may be the issue with using HDRW after HST or it could be an issue with your mask.

Quote
4 - I found out - on my second M42,  that on Color Calibration and especially on ACDNR...the negative mask that shows up to protect some areas of noise reduction...appears all white!!! On my 1st M42 this didn't happen. I still am able to do the ACDNR properly but it's really weird since the preview window Is select has both dark sky and the almost white M42 core.

This puzzles me as it sounds as if you are still masking the image while trying to color calibrate and apply ACDNR. I've never tried masking the image while using these processes but usually the stars are masked and if this is the case I'm not seeing you getting good color calibration as it's based on using stars or  galaxy core.

You may want to post some images to show us what you are referring to.
-Steve
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Offline pmesquita

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Re: NEWBIE STF AND SAVES..HELP!
« Reply #2 on: 2012 November 19 07:57:21 »
Hi Steve,

Thanks for taking the time to help me out.

1 - As far as I understand I do exactly the same as you illustrate so well with your luminance saving example. I'm quite of with saving until the end of the Image Alignment and integration. (and I do have all my files saved with names according to the steps). I also know they are linear images.

2 - Where I make a real muck...is afterwards. I believe you touched the sft spot: I save .fits (some are clones i worked on) and I assumed that once I reopened the respective file for the next step, I would have a button that, pressed, would automatically give me an STF view of the previously saved work. This is not so...I guess there is no such button (to give me a "live view" again of the current result.

3 - However you mention "save Project". Does this mean that if I save every step as "Project" I get to open it after and automatically have the STF view? If so, this would solve my problem.

4 - The Histogram explanation you gave me makes all the sense in the world. This because on my 1st M42 I tried the Histogram tutorial and I really didn't appreciate the resul so I didn't save and decided to skip that step. Thus the Wavelet work afterwards having a correct negative view (like Harry's tutorial has). I have to try that one...besides that I really don see much coming out of the Histogram step as beneficial to my primitive newbie work.

5 - to get this cleared up: If after al the linear steps (saved all steps as "Project") I do Histogram...do I finally get  a WYSIWYG image?

6 - If I leave the STF config for a given image always opened on workdesk #1 for the latter steps...can this also help when I open the images in these steps so that I always get an STF image?

sorry for being such a pain but I'm only working on PI for 4 days (many hours) and Know all Harry's videos by heart now...but there are still very important details slipping inbetween my fingers....-)))

cheers
Paulo

 



 I need
Old astronomers don't die. They move to darker skies - Anonymous.

Offline sreilly

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Re: NEWBIE STF AND SAVES..HELP!
« Reply #3 on: 2012 November 20 07:10:19 »
Paulo,

For #2, I don't know of anyway to save the STF setting so the image always opens with it and really don't see a reason for it. You may be using it differently than I do but I only use two functions with STF. The first is the automatic "A" button and if it is a rgb combined color image then I will most likely use the "RGB" button at the top to either see the current rgb color balance or hit it again to have a more balanced RGB rendering. Often times my color balance is way off and just hitting the "RGB" key shows the image with a strong color bias. See "RGB-on" and "RGB-off" for an example of this. Hitting the RGB button again, resetting the STF settings,  and then hitting the automatic button again "A" gives me a more color balanced image, but only on screen display. It hasn't changed anything but the screen display and is not a permanent change to the data. If I close the image and re-open it would be back to it's native state and I would have to re-do the steps taken to get that display back again. This can't be saved to my knowledge because every image would be different.

As for #3, I haven't used this feature so you'll need input or try and see what happens. To my knowledge, it is similar to the PSD feature in Photoshop where you are saving the image with all layers, masks, and so on. This would allow you to go back in time and pick any point in your processing and change processing directions. A search for this on PI Forum would be suggested. Juan has a great description. Here is the post from Juan back in April of 2011:

"Hi All,

The upcoming version 1.7 of PixInsight introduces the new project functionality. This is a long awaited feature most PixInsight users have been requesting during the last months (years?), and the plans are for exceeding all expectations

Projects are running extremely well in the current development version of PixInsight 1.7. We have extensively tested them and, except perhaps a few last-hour refinements, they are 100% functional now. You can (should!) watch a movie we have just uploaded to PixInsight Studios:

http://www.youtube.com/user/PixInsight

Also directly at YouTube by following this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U8jw3Zjcyw

A PixInsight project is a special file in XOSM format (XML Object Serialization Module) along with an associated folder where all image data (main views, previews and all existing states) are stored. PixInsight projects are completely self-contained, position-independent structures. You can move a project (that is, a .xosm file and its associated .data folder) to any location and even copy it to removable media or share it with other users.

A project can include, among other objects:

- The states of all workspaces.

- Images and previews, with full preservation of processing histories and their associated states.

- Icons, including process icons and ImageContainer icons.

- Screen transfer functions for all stored images.

- Masking relations, including image masks and masks related to stored processing histories.

- The states of all process interfaces, including their instances and GUI states (positions, sizes, shaded positions, etc.).

- All text documents from the Script Editor window.

- Project metadata: Date and time of creation (UTC), author and a description with optional HTML contents. Project generation features are also stored.

- A filetime-based object versioning system (similar to the make utility) that prevents accidental replacements of newer versions of existing image and text files.

What a project does not change:

- The current user preferences. Projects don't store preferences, readout options, toolbar states and other user-defined elements of the PixInsight platform.

- The current color management settings. These are not stored nor changed by projects as color management is hardware-dependent and hence installation-dependent.

- Existing workspaces are reused as possible and new ones are created if necessary, but workspaces are never destroyed when a project is loaded.

Enjoy! (and have a bit of patience...  )"

#5, when you do a HST stretch you are changing the data and if you save the result and open that image again it should be as you had before closing the image. This is a permanent change but you can use the undo button if you find you've gone too far. I suggest using the live preview option for all tools that offer it.

#6, I think you are missing the way STF works. Each image will have a different amount of noise and signal. STF bases the display on the level of data in each image and no two are the same. Some will have more and others less so the levels would be different for each. At least this is my understanding of the tool. If you look at the mean background level of your images you will see that the values are different for each image. Some may be close but seldom very close as the sky conditions are always changing unless you are extremely fortunate. A good way to see this would be to open a series of images and use the STF tool on one and then use one of the choices of "Image | Screen Transfer Functions" and then either the next to last or last choice for the remaining images. Doing so would stretch them all the same as the first image and then you should clearly see the difference between each image. Some will be lighter or darker then the first. At least this is my experience. This will be especially true if you are shooting through color filters with a mono camera as each filter allows a different amount of light through based on it band pass range.

Keep in mind I'm no expert with PI and I use dedicated CCD mono cameras (STL-11000M and ST-10XME) with filter wheels. Harry's videos are a great resource and one I've used many times when I was getting started with PI. It is clearly my choice of software for image processing and well worth the time and effort to learn. It won't be long before you're helping a beginner. I just replaced my old laptop computer and the new laptop was chosen on it ability to process my images using PI. That's how much I enjoy and use this program.

-Steve
Steve
www.astral-imaging.com
AP1200
OGS 12.5" RC
Tak FSQ-106ED
ST10XME/CFW8/AO8
STL-11000M/FW8/AO-L
Pyxis 3" Rotator
Baader LRGBHa Filters
PixInsight/MaxIm/ACP/Registar/Mira AP/PS CS5

Offline pmesquita

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Re: NEWBIE STF AND SAVES..HELP!
« Reply #4 on: 2012 November 20 14:16:23 »
Dear Steve,

Thanks for the detailled explanation. You have shred a lot more light (pardo the pun) on my very green PI knowledge. i'm right now back on the laptop about to start redo the entire process witha lll the tips you gave me. Wish me luck.   :)))))))

Kindest regards
Paulo
Old astronomers don't die. They move to darker skies - Anonymous.