Author Topic: Flat images  (Read 7088 times)

Offline Jules

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Flat images
« on: 2012 September 11 08:51:32 »
Hi

All my images are processed in Pixinsight. Initially I started image processing with Photoshop but now for me PS is a software of last resort. I much prefer the more technical approach to astro image processing that PI provides. However every time I show a friend of mine my images especially of the Ha variety, he replies with the comment that:

'The one thing I would say is in terms of its tonal range it is a bit flat and that to me is typical of Pixinsight – images often look a bit flat.  You could extract so much more tonal range in that image if you wanted to.'

For me the localhistogramequalisation tool overcomes this problem. Does anybody else see the same?

Regards

Julian
« Last Edit: 2012 September 11 08:57:05 by Jules »

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #1 on: 2012 September 11 09:30:04 »
Are you using HDRWT?
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Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline Jules

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #2 on: 2012 September 11 12:27:06 »
Hi Carlos

Yes indeed, generally after using the histogram transformation tool.

Julian

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #3 on: 2012 September 11 12:55:32 »
This is what yields the flat appearance. Try using more layers, to give more contrast to the large scale objects, and make more use of the dynamic range with them.
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Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline Jules

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #4 on: 2012 September 11 13:10:06 »
This is what yields the flat appearance. Try using more layers, to give more contrast to the large scale objects, and make more use of the dynamic range with them.

Carlos

I have used up to six layers on my images, then perhaps another iteration of HDRWT of 2 to 4 layers? Should I use more layers in a single iteration?

Thanks

Julian

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #5 on: 2012 September 11 13:19:54 »
Yes, 8 or 9 layers, single iteration. The more layers, more large scale elements are preserved. Experiment with the number of layers until you have a well balance between local contrast and global dynamism (i.e. the image does not look flat).
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Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline Jules

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #6 on: 2012 September 11 13:33:28 »
Carlos

I will give it go, thanks very much!

Julian

Offline Jules

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #7 on: 2012 September 11 13:40:55 »
Carlos

I forgot to ask, would you use that with a combination of HDRWT and the localhistogramequalisation too?

Julian

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #8 on: 2012 September 12 09:56:27 »
Yes.

Anyway, I don't use (or like) the LHE algorithm. It does the job, sure... and works fine in lots of cases, but I don't fully agree with the underlying principles of its workings. I find it too crude, and lacks a global perspective that is also needed in astrophotography. That's why I prefer wavelet-based algorithms. It is just my opinion. Keep using it if you feel that it does the work you want it to do.
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Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline Jules

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #9 on: 2012 September 12 10:08:34 »
Carlos

I will experiment with your earlier suggestion and see how I get on, thanks for your time!

Julian

Offline sreilly

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #10 on: 2012 September 13 07:07:53 »
Yes.

Anyway, I don't use (or like) the LHE algorithm. It does the job, sure... and works fine in lots of cases, but I don't fully agree with the underlying principles of its workings. I find it too crude, and lacks a global perspective that is also needed in astrophotography. That's why I prefer wavelet-based algorithms. It is just my opinion. Keep using it if you feel that it does the work you want it to do.

What procedures do you suggest in place of using the Histogram tool or am I reading this wrong? I usually calibrate, align, stack, and then use DBE/masking if necessary and then use the Histogram tool to stretch the data. If what I hear you saying is correct, what should I be doing at this point if I'm not using the histogram tool? I know there is the curves tool but I find that useful for boosting color saturation and increasing contrast and that's about it. What procedure would you generally suggest after combining your data. Keep in mind I use a mono (ST-10XME or STL-11000M) camera with filters so I have individual color images as well as luminance.

Thanks,
Steve
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Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #11 on: 2012 September 13 08:15:13 »
Local Histogram Equalization (LHE) is a different algorithm.  Histogram Equalization refers to a change to the image were you are aiming to achieve a "flat histogram", i.e., you redistribute the pixel values along the whole dynamic range yielding an image with the same number of pixels in the shadows, midtones and highlights. I wrote a module that contains this process. Also, in the new AdaptiveStretch process, with certain parameters you may achieve almost the same result. For normal images, due to the nature of the contents, Histogram Equalization usually gives good results (that may be improved by curves). In astronomical images, due the fact that background sky or objects dominate, this yields very poor results, so it should be avoided. The only reason to use HE is to aggressively stretch the background, and inspect the image (useful for placing DBE samples, or as an alternative to STF). The Local Histogram Equalization follows the same reasoning, but it tries to achieve flat histograms in small local areas. For example, take small 10x10px samples, and perform the HE there. At the end, you get an image with much greater local contrast (but the intensities loose correlation at large scales). There is a clamped version of the Histogram Equalization that prevents too aggressive changes to be made to individual pixels, and it is known as the CLAHE algorithm.

Histogram adjustments, on the other hand, is just made by selecting the black and white points of the image, and then using a midtones transfer function. In PixInsight, tha later is done with a rational interpolation algorithm, while in PS and other software the gamma function is used. There is also a third alternative, less common, that is to use a logarithm function. I also wrote a module that includes this as a manual process (along with the gamma function too). Also you may find it on the AutoHistogram process, as a selectable function. Usually I compare the results of stretching to the same values with all three functions. In most cases, I apply the result of the logarithm function, since it produces smaller stars, and a bit less global contrast than the rational interpolation.
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
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http://www.pixinsight.com

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #12 on: 2012 September 14 18:59:40 »
May I ask what results were obtained with 8-9 layers using HDRMT (I have noticed the same flattening effect using fewer layers). When using the old HDRWT tool; that is, no Median Transform, had the reverse effect.

Offline Jules

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Flat images
« Reply #13 on: 2012 September 15 07:48:46 »
Hi

I am sorry I have had to use two posts but I have a before and after image. The original flat image and the second image using the HDR multscale transform using 9 layers, 1 iteration and with the median transform box ticked. A strong star mask as well!

I hope you agree that the second image is far more dynamic with respect to the tonal range?

Regards

Julian

Offline Jules

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Re: Flat images
« Reply #14 on: 2012 September 15 07:50:21 »
The reprocessed image with the method recommended by Carlos.

Regards

Julian