Author Topic: HaRGB combining - "Vicent's Method" questions  (Read 6706 times)

Offline troypiggo

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HaRGB combining - "Vicent's Method" questions
« on: 2012 April 09 23:45:46 »
I have some L, RGB, and Ha data for a nebula image.  Been playing around with the LRGB to at least produce an image from that, but would like to add the Ha data in there.  Searching around the forums I've come across many HaRGB posts, and sooner or later one comes across "Vicent's Method:)

I've also come across a HaRGB script by Silvercup.  I posted a question in that thread, but no response so far and it appears development has stalled somewhat with no posts from the author since Sept 2011.  I had a bit of a play with the script with less than desirable results, but that's another post.

And I have also seen Harry's video tutorial on adding Ha to galaxy images.

Now I've read through "Vicent's Method" and I think I understand most of the theory behind it, although the tutorial doesn't go into details (ie a full walkthrough for dummies like me) on how to actually achieve the results.  So I do have some questions.  I've searched through other threads to see if I can find answers, and I turned up many different posts.  And these different posts all seem to claim the pixel maths in them is as per "Vicent's Method", but the maths itself seems to vary from one to the other.  And not sure of the dates, but it seems that the theory behind the method was in a bit of a fluid state at the time.  Not clear on which posts on HaRGB combination and the associated pixel maths is before, during, or after the actual publication.

Adding more confusion for me is that my data is all different exposure times and binning, so the linear Ha image is totally different to the R linear image.  In the tutorial it appears that it's based on the nebulosity brightness being very similar in the R and Ha images, just the Ha stars are dimmer.  But in my case the R nebulosity is dimmer, but stars brighter.

So now for my questions.

* I assume it's best worked on linear data, before stretching?  If so, how does one get the nebulosity the same intensity in both the R and Ha images?  My Ha shots were 4 mins each at 1x1, while the the R was 30 secs at 2x2.  Is it just done by eye and HistoTrans'n, or is there a definitive way?

* Vicent talks about iterations after combining the narrowband image (N) back with the noise reduced continuum image (Cnr) to get a new broadband R image (Bnew).  Not clear, but does he mean using Bnew, divide by orig N to get a new Cnr2?  Or use the Bnew as the new N, so C=B/Bnew?  Sorry, just read that back and it's a mess.  Hope it makes sense.

* All the posts about this HaRGB combination just talk about the Ha and RGB.  Haven't seen too much mentioned about L.  Does that get added at the end, after Ha introduced into the R?  Or when reference is made to the RGB, is that actually an LRGB image being referred to?  I don't think so, because as I understand it, L is best combined with RGB after a bit of stretching?

* Some of the formulae talk about the filter bandwidths.  I'm using 12nm Astronomik for Ha (at the moment, will shortly be going to Astrodons), but I have Astrodon Gen 2 E LRGB filters.  There is heaps of info on narrowband bandpasses, but I had to use this chart to try to guess the Astrodon RGB bandpasses.  Not sure whether to use the bandwidth at 50% or 100%?  At 50% the R is about 65nm, but at 100% it's around 50nm.  Any comments on the importance or accuracy of this?  Am I overthinking it?

* Similar to my question above about how to match the star brightness for the second half of Vicent's Method.  By eye, or definitive method?

* Vicent's Method seems to work with division with that formula C=B/N, but some of the pixel maths seems to use subtraction instead, including Harry's video.  So which is it?  Please don't say both, I hate it when people say both  :)

* Harry's video has 2 pixel math process icons with formulae:
((Ha*100)-(R*12))/(100-12) - the 100 is R bandpass value, 12 is Ha bandpass value.  This gives a new image, which as mentioned above appears to be the continuum image via subtraction rather than division.
$T+(ha-Med(ha))x4 - ha is the continuum image from above, 4 is the "boosting factor" from Vicent's Method.
Any tips on modifying the above to suit different binning and exposures?  I saw one post by Ionnis(?) that did seem to take these into account, but for the binning it wasn't clear on whether it should be multiplied by 2 for 2x2 binning, or by 4 for 2x2 binning.

* Might be getting ahead of myself considering the enormity of above post, but I assume similar theory could be adopted for OIII in the G and B channels?

That'll do for now.  I'm sure I'll have more questions.  Thankyou so much if you've read this far.

Offline RobF2

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Re: HaRGB combining - "Vicent's Method" questions
« Reply #1 on: 2012 April 11 02:41:52 »
I'm posting so I can see what the gurus say rather than adding anything useful sorry Troy. 
NB seems to be a pretty hit and miss affair with pixel math at the moment.  It sure would be nice to have a slider control with realtime preview for HaRGB HaLRGB and color assignment experiments. 
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Offline Geoff

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Re: HaRGB combining - "Vicent's Method" questions
« Reply #2 on: 2012 May 24 04:44:49 »
Good questions. Would particularly like answers to the HaRGB vs HaLRGB question. Just posting here to bump it to the top of the list.
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Offline dayers

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Re: HaRGB combining - "Vicent's Method" questions
« Reply #3 on: 2012 May 24 05:44:06 »
Me too. Thanks for raising the HaR question again, Troypiggo. I think what we need is Yet Another HaR Tutorial that sweeps up some of the loose ends at this point in time. Since Harry's tutorial has been the starting point for many of us it seems, maybe we need a Harry II tutorial, perhaps with a nebula. I would like to make my next imaging project an object with lots of nebulosity and Ha emissions. And to better understand Vicent's approach.

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Offline Harry page

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Re: HaRGB combining - "Vicent's Method" questions
« Reply #4 on: 2012 May 24 09:40:28 »
Hi

Sorry missed this before

I will have a good read later and see If I can coax the brain into a response

Harry
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Offline troypiggo

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Re: HaRGB combining - "Vicent's Method" questions
« Reply #5 on: 2012 August 26 21:33:38 »
Been quite a while now, thought I'd resurrect this thread as it's still a bit of a mystery to me.  Anyone able to answer some of my original questions?

Offline ManuelJ

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Re: HaRGB combining - "Vicent's Method" questions
« Reply #6 on: 2012 August 30 23:36:23 »
Q) I assume it's best worked on linear data, before stretching?  If so, how does one get the nebulosity the same intensity in both the R and Ha images?  My Ha shots were 4 mins each at 1x1, while the the R was 30 secs at 2x2.  Is it just done by eye and HistoTrans'n, or is there a definitive way?

A) Yes, linear data. Use Harry's video formula, you don't need to linear fit the data. The thing is what you need to do is to cancel the star flux so only the real Ha is added to the image. If you do this well, stars will be unaffected, and only the nebula SNR will be raised.

The bad news is that you have to experiment with the bandwidth, until you reach the best results.

Q) Vicent talks about iterations after combining the narrowband image (N) back with the noise reduced continuum image (Cnr) to get a new broadband R image (Bnew).  Not clear, but does he mean using Bnew, divide by orig N to get a new Cnr2?  Or use the Bnew as the new N, so C=B/Bnew?  Sorry, just read that back and it's a mess.  Hope it makes sense.

A) Just use Harry's formula, no brainer here.

Q) All the posts about this HaRGB combination just talk about the Ha and RGB.  Haven't seen too much mentioned about L.  Does that get added at the end, after Ha introduced into the R?  Or when reference is made to the RGB, is that actually an LRGB image being referred to?  I don't think so, because as I understand it, L is best combined with RGB after a bit of stretching?

A) Two options here:

1) You didn't capture L. Just put your Ha image as the L. You'll end with a Ha(Ha+R)GB.

2) You did capture L. You need to combine somehow L and Ha. Use pixelmath to reach the best results here. I recommend L + (Ha * constant) here.

Q) Some of the formulae talk about the filter bandwidths.  I'm using 12nm Astronomik for Ha (at the moment, will shortly be going to Astrodons), but I have Astrodon Gen 2 E LRGB filters.  There is heaps of info on narrowband bandpasses, but I had to use this chart to try to guess the Astrodon RGB bandpasses.  Not sure whether to use the bandwidth at 50% or 100%?  At 50% the R is about 65nm, but at 100% it's around 50nm.  Any comments on the importance or accuracy of this?  Am I overthinking it?

A) As I commented earlier, just experiment with the data and find the best balue. There is a lot of variables here to guess the value without experimenting. I use 3 and 50-60.

Q) Similar to my question above about how to match the star brightness for the second half of Vicent's Method.  By eye, or definitive method?

A) I did try to build a script for that, but it doens't work. Better by eye.

Q) Vicent's Method seems to work with division with that formula C=B/N, but some of the pixel maths seems to use subtraction instead, including Harry's video.  So which is it?  Please don't say both, I hate it when people say both 

A) Just use Harry's formula, no brainer here.

Q) Harry's video has 2 pixel math process icons with formulae:
((Ha*100)-(R*12))/(100-12) - the 100 is R bandpass value, 12 is Ha bandpass value.  This gives a new image, which as mentioned above appears to be the continuum image via subtraction rather than division.
$T+(ha-Med(ha))x4 - ha is the continuum image from above, 4 is the "boosting factor" from Vicent's Method.
Any tips on modifying the above to suit different binning and exposures?  I saw one post by Ionnis(?) that did seem to take these into account, but for the binning it wasn't clear on whether it should be multiplied by 2 for 2x2 binning, or by 4 for 2x2 binning.

A) Use the same formulas, the only variables are:

FWHM of the Ha filter -> 12, fixed
FWHM of the R filter -> guess it!
Boost factor -> the one that better catches your eye, if set too high, it will increase noise

Q) Might be getting ahead of myself considering the enormity of above post, but I assume similar theory could be adopted for OIII in the G and B channels?

A) Yes. It's a super simple process, just find the better values and voila, you're done combining the data.

Offline Grey

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Re: HaRGB combining - "Vicent's Method" questions
« Reply #7 on: 2012 September 07 04:17:02 »

Q) All the posts about this HaRGB combination just talk about the Ha and RGB.  Haven't seen too much mentioned about L.  Does that get added at the end, after Ha introduced into the R?  Or when reference is made to the RGB, is that actually an LRGB image being referred to?  I don't think so, because as I understand it, L is best combined with RGB after a bit of stretching?

A) Two options here:

1) You didn't capture L. Just put your Ha image as the L. You'll end with a Ha(Ha+R)GB.

2) You did capture L. You need to combine somehow L and Ha. Use pixelmath to reach the best results here. I recommend L + (Ha * constant) here.

Point 2 is a too short answer to me. Combine L and Ha some how, OK and then? In the tutotial from Harry Ha is added to the red channel. Then there is this two part LRGB video on the PI homepage, were the L part is added to the RGB image after stretch. This is total unclear to me, now. I think this Ha LRGB image stuff could need an additonal video tutorial ;-).