Author Topic: Brain dead, I think  (Read 34824 times)

Offline dsnay

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Brain dead, I think
« on: 2011 January 16 12:59:38 »
For some reason I can't get LRGB Combination to work. I could swear I used it the other day and it worked just fine, but today I end up with just a black image with absolutely no data in it. ScreenTransferFunction shows nothing no matter how much I "stretch" the data....

Here's what I did:
  • StarAlignment of each color set (LRGB)
  • ImageIntegration of each color set - saved each result
  • StarAlignment of each of the results
  • LRGBCombination
  • ScreenTransferFuntion

If I do the same thing but used Channel Combination for RGB instead, I get a result that shows lots of information. However, I haven't made use of the luminance data yet.

What am I doing wrong?
Feel free to say something "Hey dumbo,you forgot......" 'cause I'm sure I'm forgetting something basic here.

thanks,
Dave

Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #1 on: 2011 January 16 13:03:18 »
Can you upload a screen shot of the LRGB process window just before you apply it.

Offline dsnay

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #2 on: 2011 January 16 13:13:48 »
Can you upload a screen shot of the LRGB process window just before you apply it.



Full size version is here:

http://fototime.com/962AE86CAF66CA0/orig.jpg

Thanks,
Dave

Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #3 on: 2011 January 16 14:09:06 »
Hi Dave,

It looks like you're working with linear images. Before LRGBCombination, you must stretch your RGB and L images. An LRGB combination can only be performed with nonlinear (stretched) images. Use HistogramTransformation before LRGBCombination and everything should work well.

Besides that, I see you've selected "red_r" in the L slot. Shouldn't it be "lum_r" instead?
Juan Conejero
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Offline dsnay

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #4 on: 2011 January 16 14:58:34 »
Hi Dave,

It looks like you're working with linear images. Before LRGBCombination, you must stretch your RGB and L images. An LRGB combination can only be performed with nonlinear (stretched) images. Use HistogramTransformation before LRGBCombination and everything should work well.

Besides that, I see you've selected "red_r" in the L slot. Shouldn't it be "lum_r" instead?

But then how can I perform color calibration, since it only works on linear images? Seems like a circular problem here.....

Offline dsnay

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #5 on: 2011 January 16 15:15:50 »
Hi Dave,

It looks like you're working with linear images. Before LRGBCombination, you must stretch your RGB and L images. An LRGB combination can only be performed with nonlinear (stretched) images. Use HistogramTransformation before LRGBCombination and everything should work well.

Besides that, I see you've selected "red_r" in the L slot. Shouldn't it be "lum_r" instead?

But then how can I perform color calibration, since it only works on linear images? Seems like a circular problem here.....

So I performed a histogram stretch on each of the data set files and tried the LRGB combination again (with LRGB properly specified) and here was absolutely no difference. It's starting to feel like I need to make an RGB image here and then go back to photoshop to make an LRGB image. That can't be right. It should not be this difficult.

Offline David Raphael

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #6 on: 2011 January 16 17:28:10 »
Weird - I always combine linear data!  Never have a problem...maybe I am doing it wrong all this time...
David Raphael

Offline dsnay

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #7 on: 2011 January 16 19:13:29 »
If I open all four files in PI and then fire up the LRGBCombination function I am not able to "Apply" the settings by selecting the little square box at lower left. I receive the following error message: "LRGBCombination
Couldn't execute instance on view:
AllLum_r
Reason: LRGBCombination cannot be executed on grayscale images."

AllLum_r just happens to be the file on top of the pile of them.

If I select the "Apply Global" option, then I get the file that has no data....

Dave

Offline pfile

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #8 on: 2011 January 16 22:38:24 »
here's what i would do:

1) channel combination of the R,G,B stacks
2) color calibration, DBE, histogram stretch, hdr wavelets, curves, saturation, whatever on the RGB image. end up with a proper looking RGB image.
3) then DBE, histogram stretch, etc etc, and finally sharpening on the L image.
4) LRGB combination

LRGB combine is sort of a last step where you merge the luminance and color data...


Offline dsnay

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #9 on: 2011 January 17 03:10:57 »
here's what i would do:

1) channel combination of the R,G,B stacks
2) color calibration, DBE, histogram stretch, hdr wavelets, curves, saturation, whatever on the RGB image. end up with a proper looking RGB image.
3) then DBE, histogram stretch, etc etc, and finally sharpening on the L image.
4) LRGB combination

LRGB combine is sort of a last step where you merge the luminance and color data...



I'm still getting an empty image as the result. I'm sure I didn't do it correctly because once I generated an RGB image, I had to extract the channels so that I had something to use with the LRGB function......

Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #10 on: 2011 January 17 07:22:08 »
David (and all),

Quote
Weird - I always combine linear data!  Never have a problem...maybe I am doing it wrong all this time...

An LRGB combination basically consists of replacing the implicit lightness component of the RGB image with the L image, in the CIE L*a*b* or CIE L*c*h* color spaces. As both spaces are nonlinear, linear images cannot be used. Both images must be stretched nonlinearly.

So you must stretch both L and RGB before LRGBCombinationm, using HistogramTransformation for example. The most critical part of this process is achieving a correct adaptation between RGB and L before combining them, which can be difficult. That's why there's a luminance midtones balance parameter in LRGBCombination.

Fortunately, the L/RGB adaptation can be performed very accurately with new tools available in PixInsight. In this thread:

http://pixinsight.com/forum/index.php?topic=2741.msg18579#msg18579

I have described a method based on the LinearFit tool to perform an optimal adaptation between L and RGB, after the initial stretch. This method will be available as an automatic adaptation feature in the next version of the LRGBCombination tool.

Edit: I have re-described the L/RGB matching method in the next message.
« Last Edit: 2011 January 17 07:43:35 by Juan Conejero »
Juan Conejero
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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #11 on: 2011 January 17 07:42:27 »
Dave,

Quote
once I generated an RGB image, I had to extract the channels so that I had something to use with the LRGB function

No, you don't have to extract the individual RGB channels. Follow these basic steps:

- Open your RGB and L images. The RGB has been previously combined from the (registered) individual RGB frames (with ChannelCombination) if you work with a monochrome CCD. Or if you work with a DSLR or one-shot color CCD, you already have a RGB color image after calibration, deBayering, etc.

- If you haven't already registered RGB and L, do it now with StarAlignment.

- Stretch your L and RGB images with HistogramTransformation. Try to achieve approximately the same brightness and contrast for both images, but don't try to do a very precise work; we'll do it automatically much better in the next steps. 

- Extract the CIE L* component of RGB with the ChannelExtraction tool (select the CIE L*a*b* space, uncheck a* and b*, and apply to RGB). You can also use the Image > Extract > Lightness main menu shortcut.

- Open the LinearFit tool (ColorCalibration category) and select the L* image you've extracted in the previous step as the reference image. Apply the LinearFit process to your L image. After this operation, you can close the L* extracted from RGB since it is no longer needed.

- Open LRGBCombination. Disable (uncheck) the R, G and B channel slots. Leave only the L slot enabled and select your L image clicking the down arrow button. Be sure the lightness transfer function parameter is at its default 0.5 value (or you would be destroying the perfect match achieved with LinearFit). For the same reason, be sure the four channel weights are set to 1 and the "Uniform RGB dynamic ranges" option is enabled. You can play with the saturation parameter if you wish (decrease to increase saturation). Apply this process to your RGB image, and you're done.

Now you have an optimally matched LRGB combined image. Note that the LRGBCombination process can be used with previews. So you can define one or more previews on the RGB image over areas of particular interest, and try with them to quickly find a result that you like; then apply to the whole image.

Let me know of it works this way.
Juan Conejero
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Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #12 on: 2011 January 17 08:10:53 »
Juan,

I feel I am learning soooo much here. This is quite a bit more complicated than I had thought. Making this an automated feature of the LRGBCombination process will be a massive step forward for us mere mortals...can't wait to try it  ;) ....because there's no way I'll remember all those steps.  :(

Cheers
         Simon

Offline Harry page

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #13 on: 2011 January 17 10:19:48 »
Hi

I think you may think its harder than you think just

Process your rgb image as normal so you get a pretty picture and do this also to your lum ( or lightness  >:D) and combine them as per my video

http://www.harrysastroshed.com/lrgb.HTML simples  :P

Harry
Harry Page

Offline dsnay

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Re: Brain dead, I think
« Reply #14 on: 2011 January 17 11:56:44 »
Hi

I think you may think its harder than you think just

Process your rgb image as normal so you get a pretty picture and do this also to your lum ( or lightness  >:D) and combine them as per my video

http://www.harrysastroshed.com/lrgb.HTML simples  :P

Harry

It would great if I could get it to work this way. However, when I follow your guidance (which has been spot-on so far) I still end up with nothing but a black image as shown here.



Here is a link to the full res image so you can see my settings more clearly: http://fototime.com/FE2C3FB7BBBB752/orig.jpg
This is why I think there might be something wrong with my installation or possible some setting that I've botched unknowingly.

Dave