Author Topic: Help Files  (Read 5590 times)

Offline sreilly

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Help Files
« on: 2011 January 15 14:36:21 »
Well there was a question asked on the SBIG group about removing sky background from images and I replied that PI has a great tool in DBE, which we know it is. I also mentioned that they are many videos and text tutorials as well as this fine forum for getting help. I did mention that help files were accessed through the Process Explorer but then just now I went and looked at my up to date PI on Windows Process Explorer and counted that out of 71 processes there are only 7 with help files and of course DBE isn't one of them. I'm waiting on the flak from that but ready with Harry's video to rebut.

Now I know this is a huge undertaking at this stage of the software but is there any estimation as to when the help files will be complete? I'd be willing to assist here and wish I could but I am but a lowly beginner and am working my way through slowly and not fully understanding what I am doing. I would hope that the basic processes would be covered first if not any more than a quick basic start to each process. They could at that point be further expanded as time permits. But this would at least give basic instructions to start with.
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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #1 on: 2011 January 17 01:11:20 »
Hi Steve,

Hopefully I'll be able to continue writing more documentation very soon, during the next weeks.

Right now there are high-priority new/improved tools that we must release ASAP, new features (one of them is project support), some important bug fixes, urgent website updates and also a couple new projects. Along with the fact that PixInsight must always be evolving by its very nature, there are other competing/new products out there that are starting to push, and I have to push them back just where they must be :)

So I prefer to avoid talking about dates. Everything is being done as we are able to do it, no less and no more than that. Patience is what I ask.
Juan Conejero
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Offline Harry page

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #2 on: 2011 January 17 10:24:23 »
Harry Page

Offline oldwexi

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #3 on: 2011 January 17 10:52:58 »
Juan wrote:
"
Right now there are high-priority new/improved tools that we must release ASAP, new features (one of them is project support), "
 :-*
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONDERFUL!!!
HALLELUJAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
VERY GOOD NEWS.......

Thanks Juan
Gerald

Offline sreilly

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #4 on: 2011 January 17 14:14:28 »
Hi

Of course there is my user guide on DBE http://www.harrysastroshed.com/pixuser/DBE.html and of course the great work by mr RBA http://blog.deepskycolors.com/PixInsight/BackgroundModelization.html#DynamicBackgroundExtraction


Regards Harry

Couldn't these be used in the help system as is now and expanded/clarified as needed later? At least this would have some reference for each process. Don't get me wrong, I have no idea how hard it would be to integrate these as is but if it's a matter of cut and paste into a form or something that someone can show me how to do I'd be more than willing to help.

It's a lot easier to recommend PI if you know that the one thing people have been complaining about is helps files and that's addressed already. As it is now only 7 of 71 processes are done. Adding more features means that there even less completed help files. The number one reason people on other lists have rebuked the idea of even trying PI is the lack of documentation. For myself, the forum works for me. It may not be the fastest solution to figuring something out but it does work most of the time. There are plenty of users that are willing to help the less experienced. But I'd really like to be able to recommended PI without the usual help file complaint being issued back. It would help quiet the nay sayers and maybe encourage them to even try it.

Steve
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Offline Nocturnal

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #5 on: 2011 January 17 14:25:00 »
Well there are a few issues. First, writing documentation is typically the least favorite work for a developer. I think Juan put together the (IMO) complicated doc system so he could honestly say he was working on docs but didn't actually have to write them yet :) The other thing is that Juan is a perfectionist and would probably rather have an undocumented module than a superficially described module. Just guessing of course but I've seen Juan work for a few years now :)

Anyway, don't worry about recommending PI. Simply describe (if you like) what you use PI for and people will either try it or they won't. People complaining about the lack of documentation but don't have PI yet could easily be making excused for staying away from PI. All of us made it here without docs, right? With the right attitude (glass half full) PI is terrific software.
Best,

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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #6 on: 2011 January 17 14:26:25 »
Quote
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONDERFUL!!!

I knew you'd detect it  8)

Actually, instead of just a project feature I am working on something much better: a new file format, which will be the native format in PixInsight. With the new format, you'll be able to store the following items:

- An unlimited number of images (basically, all images currently open in PixInsight). For each image:

* Pixel data, image geometry and color space
* Window state and geometry
* Complete processing history, optionally including swap files
* Mask settings
* Transparency settings
* Color management settings, including ICC profile
* RGB working space
* All previews with their processing histories and stored states
* Metadata, including all FITS header keywords
* Optional thumbnails
* Cached statistical and histogram data

- Workspace configuration

- All process icons

This will be the first version. In successive versions one of these files will be able to store the state of the whole platform, including editor files, the states of all tools, all preferences, etc.

Note that this is a lot of work, and also very critical work because the smallest error would compromise the user's data. I agree that this is a high priority task so I'm currently working on it.
Juan Conejero
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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #7 on: 2011 January 17 14:39:38 »
Quote
Adding more features means that there even less completed help files. The number one reason people on other lists have rebuked the idea of even trying PI is the lack of documentation.

That depends on the side you are sitting :) From my side, the number one reason is not lack of documentation, but actually lack of competitiveness.

We lack a lot of tools that are absolutely necessary. For example, we don't have a PSF modeling tool and that's a real shame. There are deficiencies in the mosaic generation tools that must also be addressed. We need an automatic master frame generation tool and also a one-click tool to calibrate, register and integrate a set of images. etc... For example, if we'd have a layers feature we would compete much better with other well-known, ubiquitous application, and we would have much more licenses just for that reason. This is a very small but at the same time very competitive market. This is no game at all: no licenses = no PixInsight. It's just that simple.

Of course, documentation is important. Everything is important, and I am responsible for defining priorities.
Juan Conejero
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Offline georg.viehoever

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #8 on: 2011 January 18 12:38:46 »
Juan,

...
We lack a lot of tools that are absolutely necessary
....
Of course, documentation is important. Everything is important, and I am responsible for defining priorities.

I agree with both of your statements. But knowing that you are strongly on the functionality side (and Sander's analysis above probably has a deep truth to it), let me point out that there are at least two types of users:
- those that don't care about documentation and are happy to experiment with tools. These users prefer more functionality.
- those that like to understand what the tools do, trying to get the process right the first time. These would like to have more documentation.
It's a matter of mentalities, and people just are different.

I think that currently PI just is not appealing to this second user group, and for these reason is also loosing potential license sales. The persistent complaints about missing documentation are a real problem for PI, and the forum, blogs, wikis, videos only partially can compensate this.

Georg
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Offline Nocturnal

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #9 on: 2011 January 18 16:15:46 »
I've never seen people turn away from PI because it does not have a calibration pipeline. They may disregard the current modularized approach as too cumbersome and they won't buy it specifically for the calibration processes but they'd buy it for DBE or HDRWT or ACDNR or whatever. Lack of documentation does turn of a lot of people. Personally I'd rather have project capability than docs but I'll take docs over layers and some of the other things Juan listed.

As far as projects go I recommend keeping the images separate from the project data. It may be tempting to come up with an enormous container format (and I'm sure Juan wouldn't want to use Zip or tar but rather would devise his own) but the image data is golden and should not be risked. it also should not be necessary to fire up PI and export an image to TIFF or FITS format just to open it in another application. Anyway, Juan will implement it the way he sees fit and I look forward to trying it.
Best,

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Offline sreilly

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #10 on: 2011 January 18 16:36:54 »
I may be wrong but I think Juan is referring to a format such as Photoshop uses such as PSD which is read in PS only but contains all the layers, a history of processes that you can go back to by simply highlighting that process and so on. While I can see merit in such a format, as is now I simply save after each process naming so the title includes the processes used. That takes space but hey, HD space is cheap. While I know PS has this feature I can't think of any other processing software that offers any remote to this. I could be wrong but I don't see this as a major consideration for most imagers.   
Steve
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Offline Nocturnal

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #11 on: 2011 January 18 16:48:31 »
we should probably discuss the merits of a project feature in a different thread. Sorry for causing it to be hijacked.
Best,

    Sander
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Offline mmirot

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #12 on: 2011 January 19 09:38:19 »
All the features you mention are great and do add to the competitiveness of the plateform.
People buy or don't buy for a lot different reasons.

I like the choices of high priorty tools that you have chosen.

Just don't forget the help files they need to be on the priorty task list too.

Perhaps just try do a few at a time now that we have updates.

Max

Offline DaveS

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Re: Help Files
« Reply #13 on: 2011 January 19 12:46:31 »
I bought PI, primarily because having tried it, I particularly liked the DBE, HDWRT, and to a degree ACDNR. I say to a degree for ACDNR because I find Noise Ninja just as effective.

I do all of my image capture, calibration and alignment, in other software, and currently have no reason to change this approach. Final 'tweaking' and star reduction is done using yet another piece of software.

Perhaps this is because I am entirely familiar with the other software, which when I was learning to use it, I had full documentation to refer to.

Apart from Harry's videos and questions 'posted' here on the forum, everything that I have learned about using PI, has been by experimentation.

Interesting yes, but very time consuming, and sometimes frustrating.

I can fully appreciate what Juan is saying, in that the development of 'tools' included in other image processing software, is important if PI is to compete.

However, this is a ‘two edged sword’, in that while adding more ‘tools’ to PI increases it’s capability, it also adds further processes for which there is no documentation. A bit of a ‘catch 22’ situation.

The fact that PI didn’t have these additional ‘tools’ did not prevent me from buying PI, because I have access to them elsewhere. However, the lack of documentation to refer to when I tried the product brought me close to not buying it.

The lack of documentation for PI is well known in astro imaging circles, and without doubt has put off many potential customers from buying it.

No licences = No PI, to quote Juan, but what would result in more people buying the product, documentation (user manual) or additional ‘tools’ ?. From what I hear and read among the imaging community, the lack of documentation is the main reason for not buying.

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