Author Topic: Calibration and Stacking Help  (Read 9060 times)

Offline ashworthacca

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Calibration and Stacking Help
« on: 2011 January 11 05:34:13 »
I've used the DSLR RAW Workflow tutorial found http://pixinsight.com/forum/index.php?topic=1911.0 where I have only taken images at one exposure length but I'm not sure how to go about image calibration where I have lights and darks at different exposure lengths. I have got to a point where I have a master dark at 60secs, 120secs, 300secs and 600secs but I now need to calibrate my Flats with my Master Dark (s). Do I calibrate all my Flats 4 times (one with Master Dark 60sec, another with Master Dark 120sec and so on) or do I integrate all my 4 Master Darks into one Master Dark and calibrate my Flats with that??

Any help or guidance would be appreciated.......and most graciously accepted.

astropixel

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Re: Calibration and Stacking Help
« Reply #1 on: 2011 January 17 01:09:18 »
You only need one master  bias, dark and flat. Use the master bias and dark to calibrate the flat.

You will need to convert your dslr raw dark and bias files to .fit and then integrate to create a master dark and master bias frame.

No need to convert flats, these will be calibrated as is using the master bias and dark frames.

These links will assist with your master frame creation/calibration

http://pixinsight.com/forum/index.php?topic=2564.msg17291#msg17291

http://pixinsight.com/tutorials/master-frames/en.html

This tutorial might be of assistance also - http://pixinsight.com/forum/index.php?topic=2570.msg17312#msg17312
« Last Edit: 2011 January 17 01:16:28 by astropixel »

Offline ashworthacca

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Re: Calibration and Stacking Help
« Reply #2 on: 2011 January 17 01:35:44 »
Thanks astropixel......so it doesn't matter that my darks are at a different 4 different exposures? I can integrate them all together to make one master dark?

If that's how it is that's a pretty cool trick that pix plays.

Many thanks.

Offline pfile

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Re: Calibration and Stacking Help
« Reply #3 on: 2011 January 17 11:19:43 »
pixinsight scales the dark frame to match the frame under calibration by analyzing the noise in the target frame. i've had pretty good luck with a set of master darks made from subs of 4 minutes at 11-15C, average 13C against lights that were captured from 2C to 15C. also i've used the same master dark with 8 minute and 30 minute exposures. not sure if 30 minutes is really such a good idea, but i have not had time to make new darks.

juan or vincent would have to comment about how wide of a temperature/exposure length range a given master dark should be scaled. when using a CCD camera, the temperature is usually well controlled and so the variable quantity is time. with a DSLR your sensor temperature is going to vary quite a bit depending on ambient conditions and whether or not you have some kind of cooling solution. my cooling solution is bad and so my sensor temperature ends up being about the same as the ambient temperature - no control. either way though, noise is noise so PI probably does not care if the calibrated frame is hotter/colder or longer/shorter than the dark when computing the scaling factor.

i'm not sure if it makes sense to integrate all the darks together... i'd keep them separate and then just use the dark that's closest to the length of the lights you are calibrating.

anyway, in answer to your original question, the exposure length of your flats is probably pretty short compared to a light, right? pixinsight is going to have to scale whatever dark you use, so you might as well use the 60s master dark to calibrate the flats.

astropixel

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Re: Calibration and Stacking Help
« Reply #4 on: 2011 January 17 13:19:46 »
Quote
i'm not sure if it makes sense to integrate all the darks together... i'd keep them separate and then just use the dark that's closest to the length of the lights you are calibrating.

That's an interesting point. I took this to also mean that the combination of darks may vary in exposure times. Combining a set of darks with a sum of 1000 seconds (by way of example) may involve combining different exposure lengths. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it matters. :) I presume that is the case for darks to lights also.

Quote
Don't worry if your master dark has 1000 seconds of exposure and your flat frame is only 10 seconds: IC will multiply the thermal noise of the master dark by 0.01.

Offline ashworthacca

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Re: Calibration and Stacking Help
« Reply #5 on: 2011 January 17 22:28:32 »
Thanks for your comments guys.

I didn't mention but my lights are at different exposures to. I have

Lights 6x600secs, 10x300secs, 20x120 secs and 15x60secs
Darks 10x600secs, 10x300secs, 10x120secs and 10x60secs
Flats 20
No bias.

I want to calibrate and stack in Pix. Are you suggesting that I stack and calibrate each different exposure to end up with 4 images then integrate them together to get the final image? I feel the need for a tutorial :D

Thanks for the continued help......I really need it.

astropixel

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Re: Calibration and Stacking Help
« Reply #6 on: 2011 January 18 03:15:22 »
It is my understanding that you can integrate all your darks and create a single master - same for bias and flats.

I probably conflict with pfile here, but as the master is a master, I think it is intended to be an integration of all the darks and through scaling is representative of all the lights (if that makes sense). Happy to recant if I'm wrong about this.

You can integrate individual time sets, with HDRComposition for instance if you want to reveal detail - e.g., M42.


Offline pfile

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Re: Calibration and Stacking Help
« Reply #7 on: 2011 January 18 08:52:08 »
Quote
i'm not sure if it makes sense to integrate all the darks together... i'd keep them separate and then just use the dark that's closest to the length of the lights you are calibrating.

That's an interesting point. I took this to also mean that the combination of darks may vary in exposure times. Combining a set of darks with a sum of 1000 seconds (by way of example) may involve combining different exposure lengths. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it matters. :) I presume that is the case for darks to lights also.

Quote
Don't worry if your master dark has 1000 seconds of exposure and your flat frame is only 10 seconds: IC will multiply the thermal noise of the master dark by 0.01.

i took that to mean that the dark subexposures are 1000s each, and that the master dark is composed of some unknown number of them. 1000s is only 16.67 minutes, which is more like the length of a single subexposure than the sum total of all the exposures in a stack.

Thanks for your comments guys.

I didn't mention but my lights are at different exposures to. I have

Lights 6x600secs, 10x300secs, 20x120 secs and 15x60secs
Darks 10x600secs, 10x300secs, 10x120secs and 10x60secs
Flats 20
No bias.

I want to calibrate and stack in Pix. Are you suggesting that I stack and calibrate each different exposure to end up with 4 images then integrate them together to get the final image? I feel the need for a tutorial :D

Thanks for the continued help......I really need it.

okay, first off, you have to use a master bias frame if you expect to scale the master dark. the bias noise is fixed in every kind of frame, and if you don't remove it from the master dark, when you scale the master dark, you will also scale the bias noise. this will end up over or under-subtracting the bias noise from your lights.

also, it's hard to tell from a single line in a forum post, but you might have the flow backwards. first you calibrate each light frame with your calibration masters. then you register and stack the calibrated lights. but you should only stack together lights of the same duration, so yes, you should end up with 4 stacks. if you register each subexposure against the same reference image, then the stacks should already be aligned to each other, so you can then go right into HDRComposition and merge together your 4 exposure lengths. then carry on with normal processing.

It is my understanding that you can integrate all your darks and create a single master - same for bias and flats.

I probably conflict with pfile here, but as the master is a master, I think it is intended to be an integration of all the darks and through scaling is representative of all the lights (if that makes sense). Happy to recant if I'm wrong about this.

You can integrate individual time sets, with HDRComposition for instance if you want to reveal detail - e.g., M42.



the goal of integrating any image is to reduce the uncertainty of the value of a given pixel as much as possible. this goes for signal as well as 'noise' caused by dark current or bias current. if your subexposures have different lengths, then the value of a given pixel is going to have multiple distributions around different mean values. therefore there is no one true mean value for a given pixel to 'home in' on, and so your pixel value does not converge properly. i've always interpreted this to mean that your subexposures should have the same exposure time, whether they are darks or flats or lights. during calibration, PI is scaling the master dark to remove the dark noise from the light subexposure under consideration, to compensate for the master dark being at a different temperature or subexposure length than the light. but that's okay because if the master dark is 'clean' (meaning the uncertainty of the pixel values is low because you have used many dark subexposures to come up with the master dark), then you can come up with a linear scaling value for the dark before subtracting it from the light.


astropixel

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Re: Calibration and Stacking Help
« Reply #8 on: 2011 January 18 17:49:05 »
OK. It seems that the best approach is to match darks with lights in terms of exposure length, however, it is possible to mix darks, but that seems an advanced approach, and beyond my familiarity with PI.

I asked the question over here http://pixinsight.com/forum/index.php?topic=2769.msg18668#msg18668

I found the discussion on stargazers lounge.
« Last Edit: 2011 January 19 04:41:01 by astropixel »

Offline ashworthacca

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Re: Calibration and Stacking Help
« Reply #9 on: 2011 January 18 23:37:39 »
Thanks guy, I need to re-read some of the posts to absorb what has been said but it's making some sense.

Not taking bias frames is because I've used Nebulosity 2 in the past and I was always lead to believe that dark frames included bias noise so were not needed.

Regards

Offline ashworthacca

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Re: Calibration and Stacking Help
« Reply #10 on: 2011 January 18 23:40:51 »
I think ending up with 4 images and combining using HDRComposition is the answer to my question.

Regards

astropixel

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Re: Calibration and Stacking Help
« Reply #11 on: 2011 January 19 01:03:11 »
Sorry about the confusion. I'm getting to terms with PI still.

You may find this post interesting - quite possibly I have interpreted what Juan is saying incorrectly, or literally? Either way my understanding has been that PI doesn't worry too much about physical properties of images - I guess when he has time he might elaborate?

http://pixinsight.com/forum/index.php?topic=2118.msg13737#msg13737
« Last Edit: 2011 January 19 03:21:51 by astropixel »