Rogelio's talk at AIC2010

[Carlos Milovic]

http://astro-photographer.org/dsa/statement.html

Yes, and eat only seeds and roots

[Jack Harvey]

Rogelio  I did not for one second feel you meant anything other than times were different and PI was just launched.  I am extremely pleased you had a full room!<G>>

[Juan Conejero]

The DSA is a school of thought. As such, it only represents the point of view held by a particular group --its signers. Everybody is absolutely free to agree or disagree with us, how could it be different?

The DSA statement just expresses our vision of astrophotography. We try to define what astrophotography is for us because astrophotography is very important for us, and we neither can nor want to stay indifferent with respect to concepts and practices that, in our opinion, are wrong or even inadmissible in astrophotography. You can agree or disagree with us, or even agree partially with us. That's all fine because we don't try to make you think in any particular way. We just expose our ideas publicly because we have the right to do so; take them or leave them, it's up to you.

We only ask for the due respect. All DSA signers are knowledgeable people. When we criticize some practices, we always try to do so from a respectful attitude, and exclusively on a technical and/or conceptual basis. In the same way, when you criticize us, we ask you to do so based on technical and/or conceptual criteria, or just to say that you don't agree with us, or whatever you want to say, but please don't try to ridicule us or what we think about things that are very important for us. Also please don't say that we say things we haven't said. If you read our statement, I think (hope) our line of thought is quite clear and unambiguous.

Finally, please don't see the DSA as a threat. We are not threatening anybody. We are not against anybody; we just want to contribute to a better astrophotography because we love astrophotography and we think it represents values and principles that are very important for everybody.

That's it!

[RBA]

You're missing the point Juan, at least I think you are.

My comment simply implied that I think it's better not to describe (since the word lecture didn't seem to come along well) the DSA philosophy at talks that focus on the software's capabilities, techniques and work flow. It is not a critique to what the DSA stands for, simply a suggestion not to bring that topic on talks and workshops that focus on PixInsight "the software", most especially in cases where the audience will be a lot more receptive if one focuses on the power of the software, rather than in such or such principles of astrophotography, whatever they may be. And this might be the case and my suggestion wasn't necessary. Again, that's why I said "just in case".

Now if you want, we can talk about difference of opinions or why I may feel the DSA school of thought only goes well partially with me, but that's a different discussion. My suggestion was not to mix the message from a school of thought with what a software application can do during a talk/presentation whose main focus is the software, especially in certain cases (if you're preaching to the choir, then of course, be my guest).

[Juan Conejero]

Rogelio,

No I didn't miss the point but at 2 am I had to choose between sleeping, answering your post, or explaining that the DSA statement doesn't necessarily imply eating seeds and roots (all the pun is intended, Carlos ). I chose option #3 and then I went to bed. Good morning.

Thanks for the recommendation. I basically agree with you that mixing things is a bad idea in general. I always try to avoid doing that. I don't think we are mixing DSA with PixInsight topics in our workshops, videos, tutorials, etc., including this forum. Naturally, when somebody asks us directly then we offer our own answers.

When one has a particular vision which is the result of a deep reflection during a long time —as is the case with all DSA signers—, that vision necessarily pervades one's way of doing and communicating things. For example, I won't teach you how to modify part of an image arbitrarily with a lasso tool, simply because I never do such kind of things and I consider them erroneous, unnecessary, and inadmissible in almost all cases. If you ask me how to make an arbitrary manual selection to paint part of an image in PixInsight, I will ask you why do you think that you need arbitrary manual selections, with the purpose of stimulating your self-questioning. Then I will try to explain that you can process your image in a completely algorithmic way with PixInsight, without using arbitrary manual interventions, which are not necessary, and I will try to demonstrate that. If after all that you still insist in doing things the wrong way (IMO), then I'll try to explain how to do arbitrary manual manipulations in PixInsight —which, by the way, are quite difficult to do in PxInsight at the moment, mainly because we have always favored development of algorithmic procedures— because that's my job after all. If we reach that situation —I hope we won't— I'll probably recommend you use another application that better meets your requirements.

That's the way I understand astrophotography, image processing, and PixInsight. Astrophotography is very important for me. I'm not here for the money. Don't take me wrong; I need the money to sustain myself and the PixInsight project, but I won't betray what I think is the correct way of doing astrophotography for commercial purposes.

[Michael Hernandez]

I believe Jack Harvey did do a PI workshop in the past but unfortunately, that was before I had discovered PI.

Yes he did and I was there. How many people were in the room, Jack? I think I counted 10 to 12, maybe 15?
And to be honest, the feeling across the room was kind of like "I probably don't want to get into this"...
In the meantime, Mike Unsold giving a workshop about ImagesPlus next door was enjoying a full room.
That was two years ago.

I'm pretty sure PI has now gotten enough exposure among AIC regulars to become that full room.

But if one goes there (or many other places) to lecture, the message won't get through.
One needs to go there to teach and to show, not to make them a believer of the DSA or what not.
People want to learn, not to be lectured (I mention this just in case).

I was in Jack's workshop in 2008. The main point I remember about it was that everyone agreed that the interface was difficult to learn. Myself, I didn't see the need for another learning curve, since I already owned several other processing programs. I remember being leery about the fact the program was "free", and now was commercial. Gives me trust issues. I purchased PI last night, I noticed it said there is no charge for updates, more trust issues since others have said the same thing in the past.

[Andres.Pozo]

I purchased PI last night, I noticed it said there is no charge for updates, more trust issues since others have said the same thing in the past.

There is no charge for updates for versions 1.x not forever (see point 2.13 in http://pixinsight.com/faq/index.html).

[Juan Conejero]

Hi Michael,

Welcome to PixInsight Forum!

I remember being leery about the fact the program was "free", and now was commercial. Gives me trust issues.

The free PixInsight LE version is a subset of PixInsight Standard, the full version of PixInsight, as it was in 2004-2005. We have never hidden the fact that PixInsight has always been a commercial software development project since we started it in 2003.

You can trust that we are here to stay. This is a professional project. If it fails, it won't be because we don't work as hard as we can to make it successful.

I noticed it said there is no charge for updates, more trust issues since others have said the same thing in the past.

The only difference is that we say it seriously. It is our commitment, and trust me that when we promise free updates, we know perfectly what we are talking about; we are professionals, as noted above.

everyone agreed that the interface was difficult to learn

You'll soon discover it is not difficult at all —I hope so, and if not, come here and we'll help you as necessary. Our user interface is just different. Different doesn't necessarily mean more difficult, but in the case of PixInsight, it does mean better and more powerful and flexible, in our opinion.