Author Topic: New tools survey  (Read 20032 times)

Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #30 on: 2010 August 05 01:47:27 »
Hi guys,

Greetings from an extremely green and nice rural location in Galicia (northwest Spain), where I'm spending a few weeks of vacation. I really need some relax after 1.6.1 and all the hard work.

Thank you all for your great support and ideas. Just let me take some time to digest everything before getting back with something useful to say :)

Quote
I just got ridiculed on the SBIG list for recommending PI.

I don't think you got ridiculed, Max.

Acknowledging that documentation is something that PixInsight is lacking, there are hundreds of happy PI users and lots of great images being produced with PI. Just take a look at the gallery here and see quite a few APODs with images processed with PI.

Yes, documentation is necessary. But, what kind of documentation? Do you really want to have 1000+ more pages with technical descriptions of every tool implemented in PI? There is extensive literature on image processing that covers this aspect much better than anything we can write here. On the other hand, a number of critical PI tools are being published as open-source products, so anyone interested can explore the source code directly. Most new tools will also be open-source and some existing ones will also be released in the same way in future versions of PI. The general tendency is that only the PixInsight Core application will remain closed-source in the future.

Some applications have documentation of the type "Click the 'select image' button to select an image to process", or "click the Ok button to accept the dialog box". While this kind of documentation may be very easy to produce, I won't waste development time writing it because I think it is useless.

What I think we really lack is (not in any particular order):

- Written documentation on the user interface (including the graphical and command-line interfaces). This is very important IMO and also a lot of work.

- A general guide a la RBA, who has made a great work. RBA's guide with corrections and some extensions (basically made by me and other PTeam members) will be available in the PixInsight Core application through an integrated documentation system. This will be implemented during the 1.6 cycle.

- More written image processing examples and tutorials. Thorough tutorials and worked examples are the really useful documentation items IMO. Much more than dumb "click x to do y" documentation.

- More, much more video tutorials. These are as important as written tutorials, and have the advantage that are much easier and faster to produce than written documentation. Videos are IMO the best and most effective learning tools available, as Harry has clearly demonstrated.

- Written reference documentation for the development frameworks: PixInsight Class Library (PCL) and PixInsight JavaScript Runtime (PJSR). The PCL has its own documentation which is reasonably complete, although needs more work. The PJSR documentation does not exist and this is a serious problem that I must address ASAP.

- Written development tutorials. We need at least a tutorial that explains how to design and write a basic PixInsight module. The same for a basic PJSR script. Then we need a general description of PixInsight's software architecture and how the different components of a module interact with the PixInsight Core application, at the high, object-oriented level.  

Saying that PixInsight is worthless because it doesn't have a manual is destructive criticism denoting a very limited understanding of what PixInsight is and how it is evolving.
« Last Edit: 2010 August 05 01:54:44 by Juan Conejero »
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Offline Andres.Pozo

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #31 on: 2010 August 05 02:06:37 »
Yes, documentation is necessary. But, what kind of documentation? Do you really want to have 1000+ more pages with technical descriptions of every tool implemented in PI?
Perhaps 1000+ pages are not necessary, but for each tool is necessary (IMVHO) at least a page which says "What it does", "Why/When should you use it", "How to use it" and for each parameter "What it does" and "How it modifies the image".
For example:
¿What is the "Overdrive" parameter in HDRWavelets?
¿What the hell is RGBWorkingSpace for?
¿And ChannelMatch?
......
I can try to search the forums for this information, but some of it doesn't exist and some is fragmented in several posts...

Offline Andres.Pozo

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #32 on: 2010 August 05 02:15:50 »
- More, much more video tutorials. These are as important as written tutorials, and have the advantage that are much easier and faster to produce than written documentation. Videos are IMO the best and most effective learning tools available, as Harry has clearly demonstrated.
For the basics and tutorials the videos are OK, but if I want to know how a parameter in a tool affects the image, downloading a 50+Mb video is not the most efficient way. Also, videos are not searchable.
I am not sure that producing videos is easier than writing when you try to document complex information. Juan your videos have an script!!!

Offline georg.viehoever

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #33 on: 2010 August 05 02:23:09 »
Hi Juan

good that your are tuning in -although that would not by my idea of a relaxing vacation...

...
Yes, documentation is necessary. But, what kind of documentation? Do you really want to have 1000+ more pages with technical descriptions of every tool implemented in PI? There is extensive literature on image processing that covers this aspect much better than anything we can write here.
...

Here is what is missing most-from my point of view as a more or less "Old Hand". My main problem usually is that the information is available somewhere (Forum, Wiki, Videos, secondary literature, folklore, source codes), only it is difficult to find.

- GUI Guide: The user concept of PI is significantly different from other tools, so that needs explanation. This is probably also the part very videos are most useful.
- General Guidelines: Typical sequences of use, hints which tools need linear/non-linear space, which are useful for which type of problem
- Guides for some special tools, e.g. HDR, Wavelets, ACDNR, GreyStoration, Image Integration, Registration, Calibration, with examples of  typical use cases and effect of parameters. Links to literature for those that would like to know more.  Tips&tricks.
- Reference Guide, at least for the non-trivial tools: Usage hints, critical parameters, links to literature or important forum articles.

For programming, I think a PI concepts introduction is sufficient. After that, it is best to look at the example source codes that you provide. At least thats how I am working.

I dont think this can be a community effort. Too many attempts have been made and have failed half way (e.g. the Wiki). I dont mind to contribute, and I suppose others would do the same.  But someone from Pleijades Software/the core team needs to be the editor and needs to contribute some of the more difficult parts. If necessary, hire someone.

Georg
Georg (6 inch Newton, unmodified Canon EOS40D+80D, unguided EQ5 mount)

Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #34 on: 2010 August 05 03:09:49 »
Hi Andrés,

Quote
for each tool is necessary (IMVHO) at least a page which says "What it does", "Why/When should you use it", "How to use it" and for each parameter "What it does" and "How it modifies the image".

Agreed. This is quite closely the purpose of RBA's general guide which, with some extensions and corrections, will be available through a modular documentation system. This system will be integrated with PI 1.6.x. I already have a lot of the necessary job done, but in PI 1.6.1 it wasn't mature enough as to release it.

Quote
¿What is the "Overdrive" parameter in HDRWavelets?
¿What the hell is RGBWorkingSpace for?

Both questions require tutorials. They can't be explained in a useful way in a manual. HDRWT's new overdrive parameter requires some practical examples. The topic of RGB working spaces is too complex and has too many implications as to dispatch it with a "what/how" description. You have it explained in PixInsight LE's legacy documentation BTW:

http://pixinsight.com/doc/legacy/LE/14_color_spaces/color_spaces.html

Quote
I am not sure that producing videos is easier than writing when you try to document complex information

Much easier. Try to write a description of how a mask can be activated on an image by dragging the mask's view selector to the target image's view selector tray. Sounds kind of like a tongue twister doesn't it? And you need at least a screenshot along with your text, or nobody will know what you're writing about, probably.

You can show that in just 3 seconds with a video, and everybody understands it perfectly. You even need no words at all; just the video with no sound is sufficient.

Quote
For the basics and tutorials the videos are OK, but if I want to know how a parameter in a tool affects the image, downloading a 50+Mb video is not the most efficient way

To put a moderately complex example, if I have to explain how deringing works in ATWT, I can do that with a short video of about 5 minutes. In a video, it is really easy to demonstrate how deringing works and how the involved parameters change the behavior of the deringing routine, basically because the user sees what's happening in real time. I change a parameter and the dark ring reduces. I change it again and the ring grows. It's as if I were doing it at my computer and you were looking behind my shoulder.

However, if I have to write a document to explain the same, I need to build a couple practical examples, take good screenshots of them, and explain everything with a lot of text. Things that the video simply 'shows', require a thorough written explanation. Then some users will like and understand it, but a significant fraction of the audience will leave the reading soon after the first complex explanations, and will understand nothing at all. A video, on the other hand, has a much wider audience: basically everybody likes to watch a full video. So a video is in general much more efficient in practice.

Of course, there are tools that can't be described with a video. PixelMath is a good example.

Quote
videos are not searchable.

This problem can be largely palliated and even completely solved if (1) the videos are of relatively short duration, so they don't describe too many things in a single unit, (2) the videos are well focused on specific tasks and tools, and (3) we implement a searchable keywords system. YouTube is the paradigmatic example. 
Juan Conejero
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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #35 on: 2010 August 05 03:19:49 »
Quote
If necessary, hire someone.

What makes you think that I can hire somebody? :)

This is not really a profitable business, in the sense you're probably thinking about it. I can sustain myself now --after more than one year where that hasn't been true-- and without too much pretensions, but I am far from being able to pay anybody else's work. This is not a multinational company, despite what it may seem  :laugh:
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Offline georg.viehoever

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #36 on: 2010 August 05 04:46:08 »
Quote
If necessary, hire someone.
...
What makes you think that I can hire somebody? :)
...

And who pays for all the champagne during your vacation?  ;)

Seriously: I know you are a programming person, and there appear to be few things that you like more. But this documentation issue is a serious issue for the usefulness and  the commercial success of PixInsight. I dont think you need to write everything yourself: there are many people in the community that are willing to help. But there needs to be an editor that coordinates things, brings them into a consistent state, triggers necessary updates, ... . And from my point of view, this editor needs to be you or someone for the PI core team.

I really value community efforts, but they tend to fail if there is no coordination. Frankly, the Wiki-experience has been quite frustrating for me, and as you can see there have been no updates since March 2010 http://pixinsight.com/wiki/tiki-lastchanges.php?days=0. Most of the material is from October 2009, it has quite a number of different styles, several links/topics have seen no updates despite good new material posted on the forum, ... Somebody has to drive such an effort.

My 2 cents.

Georg
« Last Edit: 2010 August 05 06:02:34 by georg.viehoever »
Georg (6 inch Newton, unmodified Canon EOS40D+80D, unguided EQ5 mount)

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #37 on: 2010 August 05 05:59:09 »
So, Juan, how do you explain this then?
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #38 on: 2010 August 05 06:10:19 »
Do you see why I have to implement drawing tools in PI ASAP?  ;D
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Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #39 on: 2010 August 05 06:55:14 »
Juan,

Are you suggesting that my artistic talent would improve with better tools? >:(

I thought that I did a pretty good job with nothing more than Decon and Histo - given that I took the original picture of your new Lear Jet 1-6-1 from outside the airport security perimeter, at night, using an un-cooled Kodak Instamatic 135 and Fuji 100ASA film.

Some folk are just never happy :(

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
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Offline mmirot

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #40 on: 2010 August 05 07:05:35 »
I think any investment in documentation will pay for itself in spades.
It does not matter if how the labor is performed, Juan or others( as long as it is done well).
This can be a very profitable business  :)

IMO, So far you missed on marketing the product Juan .  
You have to tackle this as sales objections.
I am sure that this not your forte and no fun for you.  

It is also a big job because it is the one of the most in depth tools around.
Education and promotion are the same here.
They start with written documentation and work there way out for there.

The timimg for more presentation at the various AIC conferences is ripe.
Get what ever time you can to show your stuff.
There is enough buzz to drive attendence.
I hope the Adler conference works out well but Adler not give you much lead time.
Attendence will been better if was combined with a bigger event.

Max

Offline vicent_peris

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #41 on: 2010 August 05 08:33:24 »
So, Juan, how do you explain this then?

Hey, that's my plane to Chicago!!  O0

V.

Offline sreilly

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #42 on: 2010 August 05 08:36:33 »
Juan,

What I see on the Yahoo groups is loyal members of this forum defending PI vigorously and that's great but it seems that damage is done when PI becomes the subject because of the lack of documentation. I don't see anyone saying that PI isn't a good and powerful program but not having documentation leads people to think they have to figure it out themselves or rely on others for help. And it's pointed out that no other commercial program they know of doesn't have documentation. This is a huge point for them. I agree that Harry's done an excellent job with his videos but they don't cover everything. It's a good start but we need documentation to use as a base and having references to the videos would be a great added feature. What you've posted in the way of doing a Mosaic with screen shots and text is already done and a great example that could also be linked to a video.

I truly wanted to go to Alder but after all the expenses were totaled it was over $1,000. While this would have been a great experience meeting Vicent and learning first hand, it just way too expensive. I can't do any video link as was referred to as a possibility for Alder as I only have a satellite Internet connection which can't handle a live feed. I'm in the sticks away from city lights and city conveniences.

I do find videos a great visual tool that greatly enhance the learning experience but just like with Dreamweaver, after using Frontpage for years and then switching, the manual gets opened many times as well as using the online help. I do have a video teaching series that gets used somewhat but that's only after a couple of years when I decide top completely redo my website instead of just adding new content. Then I'll watch the videos for those subjects that I've gotten rusty on.

Having some information on each aspect of PI will be needed even if only brief with references to videos and such. Having all that material in one area for downloading will keep people from having to search all over for it as well.
Steve
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Offline vicent_peris

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #43 on: 2010 August 05 08:38:29 »
Hi!

regarding events, there are two different ones needed IMO:

- Large events like IAC are needed for a greater public impact, as you are showing PI and processing to a large number of people.

- Small events like the Adler workshop are really needed. You cannot teach correctly with a multi hundred person in fron of you. A workshop with 10 - 20 attendees is, IMO, better for teaching, and better at long term for astrophotography.


Regards,
V.


I think any investment in documentation will pay for itself in spades.
It does not matter if how the labor is performed, Juan or others( as long as it is done well).
This can be a very profitable business  :)

IMO, So far you missed on marketing the product Juan .  
You have to tackle this as sales objections.
I am sure that this not your forte and no fun for you.  

It is also a big job because it is the one of the most in depth tools around.
Education and promotion are the same here.
They start with written documentation and work there way out for there.

The timimg for more presentation at the various AIC conferences is ripe.
Get what ever time you can to show your stuff.
There is enough buzz to drive attendence.
I hope the Adler conference works out well but Adler not give you much lead time.
Attendence will been better if was combined with a bigger event.

Max

Offline mmirot

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Re: New tools survey
« Reply #44 on: 2010 August 05 10:48:17 »
Absolutely V.

Max