Author Topic: How Does One Interpret the Noise Evaluation Statistics in ImageIntegration?  (Read 13881 times)

Offline twade

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To all,

Using Winsorized Sigma Clipping I get very low Reference and Average SNR values.  Below are the results of integrating eighteen 2x2 binned images.  This seems very low.  I would have though the results would be near 4.24.  I've tried all kinds of values for Sigma low and Sigma high and all of them produce similar results.  Any thoughts?

Opening files:
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00493_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.00000
Zero offset     :  +0.000000e+000
Noise estimates :  1.967e-003
Weight          :     1.00000
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00488_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.02397
Zero offset     :  -1.373319e-004
Noise estimates :  2.025e-003
Weight          :     0.90016
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00489_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.02274
Zero offset     :  -1.373319e-004
Noise estimates :  2.001e-003
Weight          :     0.92387
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00490_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   0.98712
Zero offset     :  -1.525907e-004
Noise estimates :  2.110e-003
Weight          :     0.89142
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00491_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.00948
Zero offset     :  +7.629488e-005
Noise estimates :  2.035e-003
Weight          :     0.91665
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00492_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.00900
Zero offset     :  +1.068125e-004
Noise estimates :  2.009e-003
Weight          :     0.94147
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00494_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.01887
Zero offset     :  -3.051851e-005
Noise estimates :  2.022e-003
Weight          :     0.91132
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00495_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.03013
Zero offset     :  -1.068134e-004
Noise estimates :  1.981e-003
Weight          :     0.92897
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00496_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.00681
Zero offset     :  -1.068134e-004
Noise estimates :  2.008e-003
Weight          :     0.94640
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00497_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.01667
Zero offset     :  -1.373319e-004
Noise estimates :  1.975e-003
Weight          :     0.95954
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00498_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.00482
Zero offset     :  -1.220722e-004
Noise estimates :  2.024e-003
Weight          :     0.93514
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00499_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.00546
Zero offset     :  -2.594041e-004
Noise estimates :  2.035e-003
Weight          :     0.92363
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00500_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.02190
Zero offset     :  -3.814762e-004
Noise estimates :  1.971e-003
Weight          :     0.95397
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00501_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.00362
Zero offset     :  -5.645845e-004
Noise estimates :  2.004e-003
Weight          :     0.95637
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00502_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.01158
Zero offset     :  -5.645845e-004
Noise estimates :  2.032e-003
Weight          :     0.91584
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00503_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.00775
Zero offset     :  -6.408794e-004
Noise estimates :  2.034e-003
Weight          :     0.92054
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00504_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   0.99490
Zero offset     :  -6.408794e-004
Noise estimates :  2.009e-003
Weight          :     0.96875
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00505_cal_r.fit
* Retrieved data from file cache.
Scale factors   :   1.01774
Zero offset     :  -5.798433e-004
Noise estimates :  2.015e-003
Weight          :     0.92007

Integration of 18 images:
Pixel combination ......... average
Output normalization ...... additive
Pixel rejection ........... Winsorized sigma clipping
Rejection normalization ... scale
Rejection clippings ....... low=yes high=yes
Rejection parameters ...... sigma_low=3.800 sigma_high=3.200
Integrating pixel rows:     0 ->  2047: 100%

Pixel rejection counts:
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00493_cal_r.fit
    1 :     45058   1.074% (     3174 +     41884 =   0.076% +   0.999%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00488_cal_r.fit
    2 :     24529   0.585% (     3154 +     21375 =   0.075% +   0.510%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00489_cal_r.fit
    3 :     22340   0.533% (     7277 +     15063 =   0.173% +   0.359%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00490_cal_r.fit
    4 :     49320   1.176% (     1576 +     47744 =   0.038% +   1.138%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00491_cal_r.fit
    5 :     14495   0.346% (     4794 +      9701 =   0.114% +   0.231%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00492_cal_r.fit
    6 :      8137   0.194% (     2770 +      5367 =   0.066% +   0.128%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00494_cal_r.fit
    7 :     16054   0.383% (     3926 +     12128 =   0.094% +   0.289%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00495_cal_r.fit
    8 :      8712   0.208% (     1718 +      6994 =   0.041% +   0.167%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00496_cal_r.fit
    9 :     10577   0.252% (     1247 +      9330 =   0.030% +   0.222%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00497_cal_r.fit
   10 :      5916   0.141% (     1198 +      4718 =   0.029% +   0.112%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00498_cal_r.fit
   11 :     11619   0.277% (     1324 +     10295 =   0.032% +   0.245%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00499_cal_r.fit
   12 :      6049   0.144% (      789 +      5260 =   0.019% +   0.125%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00500_cal_r.fit
   13 :      9053   0.216% (     1889 +      7164 =   0.045% +   0.171%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00501_cal_r.fit
   14 :     10144   0.242% (     2927 +      7217 =   0.070% +   0.172%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00502_cal_r.fit
   15 :     11101   0.265% (     2526 +      8575 =   0.060% +   0.204%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00503_cal_r.fit
   16 :     33829   0.807% (     2502 +     31327 =   0.060% +   0.747%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00504_cal_r.fit
   17 :     71254   1.699% (     6333 +     64921 =   0.151% +   1.548%)
W:/Images/B144/300mm/Red/Registered/RedR2_188E_B144_00505_cal_r.fit
   18 :      9571   0.228% (     1552 +      8019 =   0.037% +   0.191%)

Total :    367758   0.487% (    50676 +    317082 =   0.067% +   0.420%)

Gaussian noise estimates:
** Warning: No significant data in MRS noise estimation routine - using k-sigma noise estimate.
?s = 1.902e-003

Reference SNR increments:
??s0 = 1.0315

Average SNR increments:
??s = 1.0675

81.969 s

Thanks,

Wade

Offline Juan Conejero

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Hi Wade,

The reason is here:

Quote
** Warning: No significant data in MRS noise estimation routine - using k-sigma noise estimate.

For some odd reason the multiresolution (MRS) noise evaluation routine has been unable to compute a valid noise estimate for the final integrated image. When this happens, a second algorithm is used (k-sigma) which is less accurate than MRS but cannot fail.

Obviously the k-sigma estimate is too high: 1.902e-3, which is nearly the same value computed by MRS for one of the raw images. For this reason the final SNR improvements are too low, and are not reflecting the true improvement achieved.

MRS noise evaluation should not fail under normal conditions. Do your images have strong gradients? Gradients can be detected as significant image structures sometimes, and when this happens the MRS routine may be unable to find any noise throughout the whole image. I have some ideas to fix this problem; perhaps I'll implement them in the next version of ImageIntegration.

Another possible cause is cold pixels. You could also try to calibrate the images with PixInsight, to see if our automatic dark scaling routine goves you better results.

A workaround: select the integrated image, and run the noise evaluation script. If it gives you similar problems, try defining a partial preview and running the script on it. When you get a good MRS estimate for the integrated image, simply divide the estimate for your reference image (1.967e-003) by it, and you'll get the SNR improvement.

And ... I'd like to see the images because they may help me to improve the noise estimation routines :)
Juan Conejero
PixInsight Development Team
http://pixinsight.com/

Offline twade

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Juan,

I really appreciate your expertise.

Quote
Do your images have strong gradients?

These were shot near the zenith so they are gradient free. 

Quote
You could also try to calibrate the images with PixInsight, to see if our automatic dark scaling routine goves you better results.

I can certainly give it a try; however, it may take some time to complete since there is lots of calibrate data.

Quote
I'd like to see the images because they may help me to improve the noise estimation routines

I will upload the images to the usual location.  I will let you know once they have been uploaded.

My CCD imager is getting pretty old so perhaps it is more noisy and less stable from run to run.  Whatever the cause, I'm confident you'll be able to find it.

Thanks,

Wade

Offline twade

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Juan,

The images have been uploaded.  They are named B144.*.

I have a feeling the algorithm is getting confused by the dense star-field.  It may appear as a gradient to an algorithm.

Wade

Offline pfile

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interesting, i was seeing the 'MRS failed' message as well. the target in question is the NGC7000 area and there are quite a lot of stars there. sorry i didnt mention this, didn't realize it could have been a bug.

Offline georg.viehoever

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"MRS failed" basically happens all the time for my Canon EOS images. I usually normalize them using DeepSkyStacker (I am probably too lazy to learn the PI procedure). When using PI to allign and integrate them, "MRS failed" is quite common.

Georg
Georg (6 inch Newton, unmodified Canon EOS40D+80D, unguided EQ5 mount)

Offline harist

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I always get MRS failed with my SXVR-M25C frames (actually I don't remember it ever not failing). I do have gradients in my subs due to LP.

Tasos

Offline Christoph Puetz

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Hi ALL,

I also agree to Georg's hint. Also for my Canon EOS 450d pictures I always get the message as described above.
Nevertheless, I use Juan's described proceeding to calibrate, debayer and align the images.
I do trial and error on the ImageIntegration Process until I get the "best" SNR improvements (as supposed above in this thread).
For me, they are also quite "low".

Example (5 Images of 30 Minute exposure, wide angle lens):

Pixel rejection counts:
/home/chris/bilder/kaernten/align_debayer_cal_IMG_2611_c_r.fit
    1 :    108023   0.882% (    51179 +     56844 =   0.418% +   0.464%)
/home/chris/bilder/kaernten/align_debayer_cal_IMG_2612_c_r.fit
    2 :    121180   0.989% (    41264 +     79916 =   0.337% +   0.652%)
/home/chris/bilder/kaernten/align_debayer_cal_IMG_2613_c_r.fit
    3 :    151360   1.235% (    53876 +     97484 =   0.440% +   0.796%)
/home/chris/bilder/kaernten/align_debayer_cal_IMG_2614_c_r.fit
    4 :    144759   1.181% (    64928 +     79831 =   0.530% +   0.652%)
/home/chris/bilder/kaernten/align_debayer_cal_IMG_2615_c_r.fit
    5 :    195013   1.592% (    60136 +    134877 =   0.491% +   1.101%)

Total :    720335   1.176% (   271383 +    448952 =   0.443% +   0.733%)

Gaussian noise estimates:
** Warning: No significant data in MRS noise estimation routine - using k-sigma noise estimate.
?sR = 7.239e-04
** Warning: No significant data in MRS noise estimation routine - using k-sigma noise estimate.
?sG = 2.132e-03
** Warning: No convergence in MRS noise estimation routine - using k-sigma noise estimate.
** Warning: No significant data in MRS noise estimation routine - using k-sigma noise estimate.
?sB = 1.496e-03

Reference SNR increments:
??s0R = 1.5294
??s0G = 1.2813
??s0B = 1.2485

Average SNR increments:
??sR = 1.6396
??sG = 1.3682
??sB = 1.2915

203.309 s

Kind regards,
      Christoph
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Offline mmirot

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"
(I am probably too lazy to learn the PI procedure).

{I think it would get a lot more use if it was easy to use.  The current calibration module without a simple way of making masters etc, has is going to be second place to others.
The Juan's promise of a script is not going forward. 
}

I notice the MRS messages yesterday when integrating M27. No gradients here either.
I got the message for the first 5-6 images then it stopped on the seventh image.
I stacked 25 images. 

Max







Offline pfile

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Hi ALL,

I also agree to Georg's hint. Also for my Canon EOS 450d pictures I always get the message as described above.
Nevertheless, I use Juan's described proceeding to calibrate, debayer and align the images.
I do trial and error on the ImageIntegration Process until I get the "best" SNR improvements (as supposed above in this thread).
For me, they are also quite "low".

Example (5 Images of 30 Minute exposure, wide angle lens):


Average SNR increments:
??sR = 1.6396
??sG = 1.3682
??sB = 1.2915

203.309 s



well, the theoretical SNR improvement is only 2.2 for 5 images, so this probably is not so bad.