Author Topic: How to remove amp glow?  (Read 20154 times)

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #15 on: 2010 May 25 16:10:27 »
Hi Harry, Simon,

I assume that you have at least done some form of analysis on your camera to 'prove' that there is no residual 'noise' element in your thermal 'DarkCurrent'?

To do this I would capture, say, around 10 normal long-exposure Darks - at whatever temperature you normally run the camera at. Then I would take a similar number of Biases, at the same temperature.

I would then want to graph the following information (one set acquired for each image) as y-values, against an x-axis running from 1 to 20, representing all 20 images :-
Max ADU
Min ADU
Mean ADU
Median ADU
SD ADU

Perhaps a picture would explain things better - the following is just an example from a test I did recently where I compared FIVE different 'image groups'


In this image, the x-axis represents a total of over 200 images, whose statistical data has been analysed using the excellent "Series Analysis" tool in AIP4WIN (Juan, please note ::))

These 213 images represent five individual data types:-
The first group contains 30-odd Darks taken at 7.5C and with 3-sec exposures
The second group contains 30-odd Darks taken at 7.5C but with 2-sec exposures
The third group contains 30-odd Darks taken at 7.5C and with 4-sec exposures
The fourth group contains 60-odd Biases taken at 7.5C and with 0.0001-sec exposures
The fifth group also contains 60-odd Biases taken at 7.5C and with 0.0001-sec exposures - but taken two days later (see how the Bias 'mean' level has shifted?)

(BTW - ignore the '7.5C' temperature - the thermal probe is no longer making good contact with the CCD. I am confident that all of these images were perfectly temperature regulated at -1.0C)

As far as the four graphs are concerned, the first shows three superimposed graphs for Mean, Median and Mmh(??) ADU (or PV values as they are called in AIP4WIN)
The next one down shows the Min ADU values for all the images
The third one shows the Max ADU values
The fourth one shows the StdDev ADU values

The point I am trying to make is that, for you to be able ('statistically') to use Biases 'instead of' Darks, then you should IN NO WAY be able to detect where YOUR group of Biases ends and YOUR group of Darks starts - unlike the 'step changes' that are visible in my example (even in my quick'n'nasty example, it is quite easy to detect the small step-change in Mean/Median values when we move from the 2-sec Darks to the 4-sec Darks - corresponding to the FAR more noticeable step-change in the Max and StdDev ADU graphs below).

Of course, your actual experience counts for a heck of a lot more than 'statistics'. If it works, it works :)

But, Mr. PixelPoliceman :police: would always want you to have at least 'thought' about what might ACTUALLY be going on 'behind the scenes'

(And I hope I haven't just spent 30 minutes typing drivel - I 'think' I know what I was trying to point out, but I can't really remember any more. "Time for bed", said Zebedee)

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #16 on: 2010 May 26 01:32:26 »
Quote
Juan, please note

This is very easy to implement with PJSR. A script to generate nice graphs as both bitmaps and SVG files can be written in a few hours. BatchFormatConversion.js can be used as a skeleton.

If there are no takers on this task, just let me finish upgrading my workstation to Fedora 13 and I'll write it.
Juan Conejero
PixInsight Development Team
http://pixinsight.com/

Offline xatamec

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #17 on: 2010 May 26 04:14:56 »
Hi stardoug,

If you want a permanent solucion for your 350D, try this:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asociacionhubble.org%2Fportal%2Findex.php%2Fforo%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D16%26t%3D37684&sl=es&tl=en

Sorry the language is a bit weird, it's google-translated to english from spanish.

Sergi

Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #18 on: 2010 May 26 04:24:28 »
Hi Niall,

An excellent summary. I did actually do roughly what you have suggested...though maybe not with quite as many images. I compared 1/4000th second bias images with 10 minute dark frames. I used PI to analyse areas of both, and even stretched them using the same (extreme) Histogram parameters. The statistics readouts looked the same...and the extreme stretch images looked the same to me (though the eye is a good liar!). So I'm happy to leave out the darks from my setup.

Life is so much easier as well.  ;)

Cheers
         Simon

Offline NKV

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #19 on: 2010 May 26 20:40:19 »
I just want to show my experiment with "Series Analysis" tool in AIP4WIN.
Bias (1/8000) ISO400, Canon 40D.
The result on the chart.

Y=StdDev
X=framenumber.

As_Is = analysis of the entire frame.
Crop = Requested Region of Interest (3,9) - (3896,2586), ie slightly emarginate.

Conclusion: Cut the frames ( Canon 40D ) , because they contain an extra service information.

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #20 on: 2010 May 27 02:41:48 »
Hi Nikolay,

What caused the 'dip' in the 'as is' StDev graph between (around) frames 43 to 64?

Cheers,
« Last Edit: 2010 May 27 06:30:23 by Niall Saunders »
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline mmirot

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #21 on: 2010 May 27 06:20:17 »
Harry...you are a wise man.....cooled cameras are the way to go. Darks are really such a pain, especially to do them 'properly'...whatever that is.

I've now started cooling my DSLR with dry ice....it cools the camera compartment to about -20oC for about 4 hours. The darks look exactly the same as the bias frames...so I actually don't use darks now either. Phew!  ;)

I don't think your dark current is negligible. So I think your missing a valid calibration step. If it is as low as a sony chip you can get a away with a bias subtraction insted.  You always should do one or the other.

Max

Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #22 on: 2010 May 27 08:34:43 »
Hi Max,

I am doing a bias subtraction, but not a dark subtraction, because the dark signal is negligible compared to the bias signal.

Cheers
         Simon

Offline NKV

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #23 on: 2010 May 27 10:33:10 »
What caused the 'dip' in the 'as is' StDev graph between (around) frames 43 to 64?
Overscan area, which contain wrong data.

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #24 on: 2010 May 27 12:03:35 »
Hi Nikolay,

OK, 'overscan', but why only in those (or, more likely, NOT in those particular frames?

Or is it just a case of not all of these Biases were taken 'one after another'?

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC