Author Topic: How to remove amp glow?  (Read 20155 times)

Offline stardaug

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How to remove amp glow?
« on: 2010 May 24 12:26:56 »
Hi - I'm currently testing out PixInsight 1.6. One thing I am having a problem with is removing the amp glow in the corners created by my moddified 350XT. This was a problem when I used Deep Sky Stacker, it didn't remove the amp glow. The only program so far I found that removed the amp glow when I calibrated the RAWs using darks, is Maxim DL Pro. Is there a special way to calibrate images and remove the amp glow? I've read a few posts on here touching on the subject but I need more specifics. I would have thought PixInsight would be able to remove the amp glow when I do calibration on the RAWs using the darks I shot; subtract the amp glow? But it doesn't. And DBE isn't doing it either. Anyone have any experience with this that they could share a step step procedure?

Clear skies!
« Last Edit: 2010 May 24 12:38:29 by stardaug »

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #1 on: 2010 May 24 12:31:14 »
Vicent was using a blured dark to deal with the amp glow. Now I own his Canon 300D, but so far I had not suffered too much with it, and darks have been good enough... Anyway, I think that he should explain his method, 'cause I have not tried it :)
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Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline stardaug

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #2 on: 2010 May 24 12:37:29 »
Thanks Carlos - I would be interested in learning more about this blurred dark process.

Cheers.

Shawn

Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #3 on: 2010 May 24 13:01:39 »
Hi Shaun,

The simple answer (though maybe not much help!) is that DBE should be able to deal with any amp glow left over after calibrating with darks. I think Harry probably has a video tuorial on DBE that is well worth studying.

And try to make sure that you get enough DBE samples where the background is changing rapidly, i.e. in the amp glow region and where it fades into the wider background. And play with the Tolerance factor. Try increasing it from 0.5 to 1 and see if the modelled background captures more of the amp glow. Maybe keep increasing it in 0.5 steps. Keep looking at the modelled background image bnefore you think about subtracting it....check it looks like its captured the 'shape' and colour of the background.

As a last resort I would try increasing the Continuity Order from 2 to 3....but no higher...it will go crazy!

If that doesn't work then maybe try removing the background as best you can using the above method.....then apply a second iteration of DBE...changing the parameters again. This is probably PI heresy (it really should be done in one stage), but it did work for me once.

Cheers
         Simon

 

Offline stardaug

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #4 on: 2010 May 24 15:01:42 »
Thanks Simon - I will go back to DBE and try different methods as you suggest.

I am impressed with PixInsight for sure, but I find it odd that it would not be able to calibrate out amp glow like MaximDL Pro does.

Cheers.

Shawn

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #5 on: 2010 May 24 15:59:51 »
Hi Shawn,

I'll be honest here and say that there is NO reason that 'amp-glow' shouldn't be effectively dealt with during a 'proper' calibration stage. There is nothing 'magic' about amp glow - it is just a 'thermal signal' that needs judicious application of correctly acquired Dark frames to try and control it.

I don't know about the mods that may have been carried out to your DSLR (if any), or whether your camera allows for 'Noise Reduction' when used to take long exposures, but the experience that I have had with my totally un-modified Olympus e500 was that I really needed to take a Dark frame IN BETWEEN each Light frame. This was the ONLY way to guarantee that the two frames would be 'thermally matched'.

If you can't get the 'thermal matching' correct, AT the time of capture, then EVERYTHING else that you do thereafter is a 'compromise'.

Even then, assuming that you do have the willpower to execute a Dark-Light-Dark-Light-Dark capture sequence, you still do not benefit from a properly temperature regulated environment - or even the benefit of a non-regulated environment such as provided by the standard Meade DSI cameras, which at least provide a record of the actual CCD temperature of each image, information that can allow temperature matching between lights and darks in the post-processing stage.

So, the best you can get is to 'assume' that a Dark taken immediately before, or after, a Light is going to be as close - thermally - as you are likely to get. What you do NOT benefit from is the ability to take multiple Darks (whose temperature IS known) and to then 'average' these together (eliminating 'noise' from the resulting MasterDark) before application to all the temperature-matching Lights. Typically, the 'best that you can get' is to 'assume' that two Darks taken 'each side' of a corresponding Light should give you the best thermal match to that Light, and you can at least eliminate SOME of the 'uncertainty' by averaging these TWO darks into a 'master dark' - but realise that this 'master dark' will ONLY be applicable to the Light around which the source Darks were taken.

It really is as difficult as this if you want to get 'the best' from a non-cooled DSLR. And, because it IS as difficult as this, most folk just don't bother. They either use the built-in 'Noise Reduction' facility of the camera. This option, in reality, simply takes a second - identical - exposure immediately after the 'light', this time WITHOUT opening the shutter, and simply 'subtracts' the 'dark' from the 'light' right there and then, BEFORE saving the result (in whatever format you have requested) to your storage medium. You don't therefore take ANY 'Darks' or 'Biases' - there is absolutely NO need and, even if you did, you couldn't use these anyway, as you have ALREADY DARK-CALIBRATED your Lights when you acquired them.

You could still take Flats - and the same argument (all of it) applies to these as well. After all, a 'Flat' is just a 'Light' that has used a different light source. So, if you are going to calibrate with a MasterFlat as well (and, ideally, you should) then you will really have to end up acquiring these in a FlatDark - Flat - FlatDark - Flat - FlatDark sequence as well.

And, once again, there is no place in this sequence for capturing Bias images, They just don't apply when you have NO INFORMATION about the thermal state of the CCD during any capture process.

Of course, the corollary to this is that - if you DO know the thermal state of the CCD when capturing - you can apply a 'standard' calibration procedure, and can capture images in a more 'conventional' sequence.

So, if you are not following the capture process that I have tried to dewcribe, then your resulting dataset will perhaps NOT be best suited to eliminating as much 'thermal noise' as possible. This may be the cause of more amp glow, which is then more difficult to process out.

As Simon has stated, DBE does an excellent job - where it can. But it is NOT a 'magic wand' that will eliminate defects integral to the capture method.

As I said, you will always struggle with an un-cooled or un-regulated DSLR, but careful attention to detail at the time of image acquisition, along with detailed knowledge and understanding of the problems that you are going to be up against, can mitigate against these problems. There are PLENTY of excellent images out there that demonstrate that it CAN be done ;D

HTH

Cheers,
(and, once again, if you have not already bought 'the bible', now is the time to be seriously considering getting your hands on a copy of the "Handbook of Astronomical Image Processing", or 'HAIP' as everyone knows it. In that worthy tome, the principles I have so glibly described above are laid out in minute detail, and these should help you no end)
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

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Offline stardaug

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #6 on: 2010 May 24 18:58:16 »
Hi Niall - wow that was extremely informative. Thank you for taking the time to write all that. I understand what you are saying and I cannot say without a doubt that the darks are a perfect match, even if that was possible. I usually shoot darks at the end of an imaging session. I haven't tried the built in noise reduction/automatic dark frame acquistion that the 350XT has. It just struck me as odd that Maxim was able to calibrate out the amp glow, even if the darks were not a perfect match, and PixInsight doesn't using the same RAW and dark frames. I have watched the tutorials online and they've been very helpful. I am going to go back and retry DBE, paying closer attention to the amp glow areas and see what results I can achieve.

Thanks again!

Shawn

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #7 on: 2010 May 24 23:41:38 »
Hi Shawn,

Glad my ramblings were of some use :D

There is another problem - one that I am dealing with right now in my own (non-DSLR) data. As you work your way through your calibration steps, take the time to pick one of your 'raw' Dark frames (at random) and have a look at the Histogram of this rawDark in PI.

Compare the Histo with that of your MasterDark - the two curves should be, more or less, 'the same'. There certainly should NOT be any 'major sideways shift' in the location of the main Histo 'peak' when you look at your MasterDark.

That is what I have been seeing in my images, and it causes a world of nastiness to my image data if I try using it as a MasterDark thereafter.

Just bear in mind that the calibration routines in PI are still very 'young'. They have not necessarily been tested with every different type of data, so you need to just keep an eye on whether they ARE processing your particular data type correctly. (That's why I was recommending HAIP so strongly - it really helps you get your head around what 'should' be happening)

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #8 on: 2010 May 25 01:10:23 »
Hi Shawn,

Welcome to PixInsight Forum.

If you want you can upload one of your images and I'll be glad to try my hand to remove the amp glow with PixInsight. I'd post a few screenshots here to show you what I did.
Juan Conejero
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http://pixinsight.com/

Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #9 on: 2010 May 25 03:24:52 »
Quote
I haven't tried the built in noise reduction/automatic dark frame acquistion that the 350XT has.

Good...don't! This is one of the worst ways to substract a dark from a light frame. Basically you are using a single dark frame...with its full noise level...and subtracting it from a single light frame. This means your dark frame has the maximum amount of noise in it.

Its much better to collate all the darks and create a MasterDark frame so that the noise in the masterdark is reduced to 1/srqt(n) ....where n is the number of dark frames.....relative to the original single dark frame. Taking one dark frame between each light frame is a good idea to match the temperature...but wait till the next day to sum them together into a single MasterDark before applying them to the light frames.

Just my 2 pence worth.  ;)

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #10 on: 2010 May 25 03:35:35 »
Hi Simon,

Whilst I do tend to agree with you, the 'in-camera noise reduction' solution is often the 'easiest' to implement - given that a DSLR usually makes it almost impossible to otherwise perform any kind of temperature matching.

The 'Dark-Light-Dark-Light-Dark' method is the next best solution, but it is mind-numbingly boring and, far worse, it blows away more than 50% of your precious available imaging time (remember, here in NE Scotland, available imaging time is counted in SECONDS :'()

No matter which method is used though, knowing the options, and understanding the implications of choosing one over another are pretty important facts as well.

Let's see if Juan's magic fingers help . . . .

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #11 on: 2010 May 25 05:05:02 »
Hi Niall,

Living in SW Scotland we dream of all those clear skies you have in NE Scotland  :'( ... and I never take darks during the dark....well not on those rare occasions when its clear and dark anyway  ;) So I agree with you 100% on that one.

I actually think its just as easy to take light / dark / light / dark sequences and save them, as it is to do exactly the same and have the camera do some dubious internal subtraction. Doing it this way does mirror the temp during the whole sequence that the lights would have experienced. However, I don't do that for exactly the reason you suggest....time is too precious.

And temp matching is not actually that difficult...not to the level that you need anyway. The next night, or the fridge are good options (though not 100% perfect) for this. But taking l/d/l/d sequences also limits the number of darks you can take i.e. it equals the number of lights. I'd much rather take 20 x 15 min darks the next day at as close as I can get to the same temp than take 4 x 15 min darks at the same time as my 4 x 15 min lights....assuming I actually managed to get one of those very rare 2 hour windows of imaging.

So exact matching of temp usually takes second place to getting more darks to average IMHO.

And remember that the PI calibration process allows for optimisation of the darks....which means that it actually doesn't matter what the temp was....though I'd be really dubious if a big difference could be calibrated out correctly  ;). But small differences should be fine...I would have thought.

But you are right...there are many methods of taking darks depending upon imaging equipment, access to temp control, time, etc, etc. And lets not even start on flats!!!!

My guess is we could all agree on bias frames.....I love bias frames....if only all frames were as easy as bias frames.  :D

Offline bitli

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #12 on: 2010 May 25 08:54:54 »
As you state that it works in MaximDL and not in PI, I assume that you start from the same raws in both programs?
If you converted raws to FITS in one program, and then use the FITS in another, you may at time have surprises (especially if you use a float 32 format).

Also the Maxim DL FITS seems to have a 'pedstal' information which may or may not be needed/useful to PI.

Do the darks have the same mean/median/extreme/historgram when examined with PI and with MaximDL?
-- bitli

Offline Harry page

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #13 on: 2010 May 25 11:59:29 »
Hi Simon

I have starlight xpress cameras and never have taken a dark  :P  and I never intend to start all sounds like hard work to me  >:D

Harry
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Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: How to remove amp glow?
« Reply #14 on: 2010 May 25 12:56:48 »
Harry...you are a wise man.....cooled cameras are the way to go. Darks are really such a pain, especially to do them 'properly'...whatever that is.

I've now started cooling my DSLR with dry ice....it cools the camera compartment to about -20oC for about 4 hours. The darks look exactly the same as the bias frames...so I actually don't use darks now either. Phew!  ;)