Author Topic: Layers  (Read 22713 times)

Offline Harry page

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Re: Layers
« Reply #15 on: 2010 May 03 02:11:11 »
Hi

Someone once said

"There are as many schools of astrophotography as there are astrophotographers".  >:D

May be true

Harry
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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Layers
« Reply #16 on: 2010 May 03 02:13:12 »
Hi Bud,

Quote
Now, I hope nobody takes this as any thing more than a simple discussion of ideas/methods in processing.

Naturally. One of the main goals of this forum is to promote the development of astrophotography through constructive criticism and open discussion. In general, you'll see few attaboys here. You'll see many vivid discussions on key topics, including technical, aesthetic and philosophical discussions on image processing, processing ethics, photographic art and software development. We try to avoid all taboos here.

Quote
I would say that the same criterion would apply as a person that uses a star mask....deconvolve/HDR transform and see what shows

We pursue a systematic approach to image processing. Before applying deconvolution, for example, we first analyze the data to see whether we have enough signal. We frequently perform wavelet decompositions to inspect or analyze the distribution of noise in the image at different scales. Ultimately, our accumulated experience tells us what path to follow. We also love planing and trying out new paths. In general, we try to be very careful to avoid enhancement of marginal data because that leads to generation of false structures or artifacts. If we don't have enough signal to apply deconvolution, we seek for other algorithms that can be less sensitive to noise, such as wavelet transforms. With HDRWaveletTransform we basically try to overcome dynamic range problems. This is a key topic in astrophotography because we often work with data sets that represent structures with numerical values that differ by many orders of magnitude.

In general, most of these algorithms usually require masks to protect low SNR data. You can deconvolve the core of a galaxy, but you probably can't deconvolve the structures on its outer spiral arms in the same way. Selective processing is necessary because the uncertainty in the representation of object structures is not constant throughout the whole image: it is a (inverse) function of incident light. And here comes our eternal companion —the noise, what else— to make the things funny. There are other instances where the nature of the data acquisition processes and the instrumental limitations reduce our possibilities to process some image structures. This is the case of the stars, for example, where we frequently need special masks to avoid generation of artifacts due to jump discontinuities (ringing), or to avoid flattening of star profiles (saturation).

Of course, you can always make the decision to not deconvolve, not sharpen, not perform noise reduction, not try to fix dynamic range problems, not handle image structures at different scales, and apply just basic nonlinear intensity transformations to adapt the data to the human vision system. You can do that, but then you should ask yourself why you are doing astrophotography in the first place. Without a personal interpretation of the data, without pursuing the maximization of information representation, there's no fun at all. When we don't take our responsibility, everything is secure but also very boring. When we face the problems, we take the risk to make mistakes, but everything is exciting and we grow. Astrophotography isn't too different from everyday life.

So once we can agree in that we need image processing in astrophotography, and in that we want to squeeze the last bit of information from the data, the key question that remains is how —the other key question is why, but I assume we all know our own why, and I am quite confident we basically agree in the answer.

In my opinion, by painting a mask with a brush by hand, you are not taking your responsibility as an interpreter of the data. This is more a question of ethics and principles than a technical question. You can be extremely careful when you draw your masks, and you even can master it to the point that I can be unable to say whether you've applied a hand-painted mask or an algorithmic mask by looking at the final product. As I've said in my previous post, the final product isn't as important as the process for me. Or perhaps more than the process, the reasons behind the process.

There's no love for the data when you paint a mask by hand. When you use the brush to sharpen a tendril of nebulosity by arbitrarily punching a hole in your mask, you're following an easy path that perhaps gives you the immediate answer that you (think that you) need, but you are not understanding what happens. The brush doesn't let you understand what are the relations between different structures in your data, and how the signal and the noise interact to yield the beast that an astronomical image is. In other words, the brush doesn't let you grow as astrophotographer. Ten years after this conversation, you can be using the brush exactly in the same way as you can use it today. The brush is easy, the brush doesn't make you questions, the brush will never fail or deceive you because it is the "ultimate" solution.



Juan Conejero
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Offline budguinn

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Re: Layers
« Reply #17 on: 2010 May 03 07:39:07 »
Hi guys,

Thanks for all the nice responses and good input....I believe I understand all of the responses very well and the various mindsets as to how we achieve a proper result.

Rogelio, thanks for taking the time to give a very detailed description of your processing and the reasoning behind it.
I remember Steve Mandels talk of this and his "discovery" of the IFN...and his starting of a project to document it.....exciting stuff.....this was at the 2005 AIC.

Rogelio were you present for R J Gabany's talk on how he was "discovering" hidden data?.......When he showed his method I cringed...knowing that he was stepping a bit over the line.  It was interesting that he was contacted by many big time astronomers as to how he had discovered the tidal components in his image.
He did this presentation in 2006 at the AIC in San Jose, Ca.
here is a link to a picture and the confirming image from an observatory in Greece..
http://www.cosmotography.com/images/small_ring_ngc5907.html
there's a bunch of stuff on-line with a simple google...
R Jay's method was the use of a painted mask for reveal.....and I thought, as he was showing it, that "this is what I sometimes do" and also realized that he was going to take some heat.
I believe that this might be possible to have been done with PixInsight if it had been available in its present form....back in 2006.
But, when you look at R.Jays picture and its confirmation picture you see that they are practically identical and it is a bit of a confirmation that the technique is viable.

Juan, I appreciate your considered reply to my questions and probably agree with a huge percentage of it.......except that little thing about the "painted" masks.....can't we just call them "variable".
Quote
In my opinion, by painting a mask with a brush by hand, you are not taking your responsibility as an interpreter of the data. This is more a question of ethics and principles than a technical question. You can be extremely careful when you draw your masks, and you even can master it to the point that I can be unable to say whether you've applied a hand-painted mask or an algorithmic mask by looking at the final product. As I've said in my previous post, the final product isn't as important as the process for me. Or perhaps more than the process, the reasons behind the process.

for me, I'd just invert the second to last sentence........."the process isn't as important to me as the final result."......with a caveat......as long as you have been faithful to the data.

Now, back to playing with the program and maybe learning how to make a better luminance mask.... ;)

best regards,

bud

Offline mmirot

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Re: Layers
« Reply #18 on: 2010 May 03 10:25:18 »
I personally feel the documentary argument is flawed.  No matter what tools we use we can produce some nasty artifacts. The brush is not mighter than the global algorthym or vise versa.


However, the PI authors have repeatedly shown that there is more than one way to produce a great result.
The more I use PI the more appreciate the methods Juan et. al advocate. 

I have have wanted some drawing tools for masks because they are simple and often it works well.


The heart of the problem the PI masking system. It can be inefficent/slow to implement as others have pointed out. 

Also, it has it own limitations.

1 Adding to the mask is more labor than it should be.
2 Combining masks should be drag and drop with layers, inverted etc
3 Star Mask generation is a bit slow.  A preview does not speed up parameter selection.
4 Mask generation tools are very limited.  No ability to select based on color range, brightness range, SD, SNR etc.
5 Can't grow or shrink a masks effect ( Except star mask Grow)

It is time to make the request for paint tool irrelevant Juan, Vicent and Carlos. 

Max

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: Layers
« Reply #19 on: 2010 May 03 10:43:49 »
Hi Max :)

Some notes to your limitations list:

1.- PixelMath. Not that easy, but you alway can use it to add images, multiply, etc.
2.- Agreed. It should be easier to combine images with "standard" methods (i.e. +,*,/,screen,etc)
[developer mode on] Juan, how about a process like the "first" PixelMath, or the current ImageContainer for this? I mean create a list of images, and a method to blend them. It should be something very simple. One method for all off them. It may work in a global context, or apply the set of images to a target frame, the "0" frame on the list.[developer mode off]
3.- Instead of a preview, create a clone of the preview, as a new image. This is faster.
4.- Agreed. This is a field were we have to create more tools. I published two processes in that direction, Seed and ColorRange. I hope Juan will incorporate them soon to the main set.
5.- Yes you can. Use the MorphologicalFilter process.
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline vicent_peris

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Re: Layers
« Reply #20 on: 2010 May 04 02:12:59 »
Juan, I appreciate your considered reply to my questions and probably agree with a huge percentage of it.......except that little thing about the "painted" masks.....can't we just call them "variable".

Hi Bud,


take a look at this tutorial by Ken Crawford:

http://rdelsol.net/Movies/DOF/DepthOfField.html

Go to minute 14 to see him painting the mask that controls the sharpening. And go to 16:05 to see the mask itself!  :o

Any mask, by definition, is variable, in the sense that it's necessary to adjust it to achieve the desired control over a process. Don't call these masks variable, trying to hide the fact that you're painting. Because you're not defining these masks through the word "variable". Can't we just call them what they are: PAINTED masks (in capitals).


Regards,
Vicent.
« Last Edit: 2010 May 04 03:32:45 by vicent_peris »

Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: Layers
« Reply #21 on: 2010 May 04 05:04:05 »
Hi all,

There is clearly a whole spectrum of views on this topic....and whoever said they were 'opinions' is 100% correct. However, this subject comes up time and time again which is telling us something very significant.

It is telling us that the 'paying customers' are not getting something that they clearly want. We quite rightly tell them that masks are a wonderful thing and we quite rightly tell them that they should be used all over the place to selectively modify the data. We tell them that however you do the above, its acceptable, but only if its algorithmic. (Give me enough time with an algorithm and I can select anything I like and alter it however I like.....however it could be extremely time consuming)

We even spend a whole pile of forum space 're-educating' the customer, i.e. extremely politely telling them that they are wrong. Now I know that the customer is NOT always right, but its a hard sell to keep telling them they are wrong.

We then supply a very simplistic Paint tool so they can 'fix' their masks. This is a confusing message.

The customer's general response is to say 'well PI is so cool I'll keep trying....but in the mean time I'll use PS to paint on my masks and then reimport them into PI'. This is also telling us something very significant.

The simple fact is that the painting or area selection tools in PI need to be enhanced at some point to make the package more inclusive, i.e. to be more successful. It is then up to the users whether they paint or not. But my guess is that more than 50% of the customers would regularly use such a tool....and that's a significant number.

Where do I stand on this? PI is the best, algorithmic methods are the best, PI's masking is really powerful....but I have been known to get extremely frustrated and resort to exporting a mask and 'correcting' it in another package before reimporting it....and I have been very pleased with the results. And I would love to be able to do all this in PI.

My two pennies worth.  ;)

Cheers
         Simon

Offline vicent_peris

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Re: Layers
« Reply #22 on: 2010 May 04 07:19:52 »
Hi Simon,

I think Juan is not in this bussines to become a gold-man. So I'm pretty sure he prefers to do the correct (in his thinking) things and lose 50% users. Sincerely I think Ken would not going to do a significant contribution to this community (not in his present way).

Regards,
V. 

Offline xatamec

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Re: Layers
« Reply #23 on: 2010 May 04 07:23:08 »
My personal approach to AP tends to be closer to Juan and Vicent aproach, but must admit that very often I use the clone stamp tool to eliminate rests of bright nebular structures from my star masks, so I don't know if I am consistent with my own philosphy. I wouldn't know how to justify my usage of this tool in front of someone who paints the arms of a galaxy in a mask to enhace them in the actual image... although I am convinced that there is a huge difference in both usages... but can't find absolute arguments.

Taking Vicent words, the problem is not the tools, but how the imagers use them. So... let the tools be there and let everyone use them according to their personal approach to AP.
I have never used PS to AP processing so I don't miss its layers or painting tools. But know many people that would like to come to the PI world but find the transition from PS too hard. So, it would be nice to have some painting and layering tools in PI to make their transition easier (ie make PI much more successful) and once they are caught (:D)... they can be shown the way to the true faith  ;D . They can get convinced step by step that is much more respectful with their data to use the algorithmic processes that PI offers than arbitrary processes like painting. And I just say "more respectful", not "more ethical". Ethics are not universal, they rely on many arbitrary aspects so I don't consider it an appropiate word in this discussion.
BTW, currently there are a lot of possibilities in PI to generate masks based on algorithmic processes but, as Max says, it would be nice to have even more possibilities based on other properties of the image.

Sergi
« Last Edit: 2010 May 04 08:21:09 by xatamec »

Offline Jack Harvey

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Re: Layers
« Reply #24 on: 2010 May 04 08:20:50 »
My observation is we all get accustomed to viewing images of a certain style.  FOr instance the M57 image mentioned is a bit of a cross between the amateur astrophoto and the images that come from professional observatories that are not so "cleaned up".  Our recent Antennae in its final form was preferred by the SSRO group to be a bit cleaned up

http://www.starshadows.com/gallery/display.cfm?imgID=350

However my personal preference is for an image that still has diffraction rays around the big stars and some mild blooming  

http://www.starshadows.com/_img/Antennae_small.jpg

So we find there are various schools of astrophotography from the very conservative or Realistic school to the image that is heavily "painted" and somewhat Impressionistic.  In terms of the appreciation for these styles, I suspect there is room for all, and the majority of us fall somewhere between the two.
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Offline vicent_peris

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Re: Layers
« Reply #25 on: 2010 May 04 08:33:30 »
My observation is we all get accustomed to viewing images of a certain style.  FOr instance the M57 image mentioned is a bit of a cross between the amateur astrophoto and the images that come from professional observatories that are not so "cleaned up".  Our recent Antennae in its final form was preferred by the SSRO group to be a bit cleaned up

http://www.starshadows.com/gallery/display.cfm?imgID=350

However my personal preference is for an image that still has diffraction rays around the big stars and some mild blooming  

http://www.starshadows.com/_img/Antennae_small.jpg

So we find there are various schools of astrophotography from the very conservative or Realistic school to the image that is heavily "painted" and somewhat Impressionistic.  In terms of the appreciation for these styles, I suspect there is room for all, and the majority of us fall somewhere between the two.

I agree with you. But the problem arises when one is breaking the documentary value of a scene and not informing the viewer.


V.



Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: Layers
« Reply #26 on: 2010 May 04 09:24:49 »
Hi Vince,

Quote
So I'm pretty sure he prefers to do the correct (in his thinking) things and lose 50% users

You might be right. However, I would have thought that doubling the user base would be nice for Juan as well. My 'selfish' angle here is for Juan and for PI to succeed, because I want to keep using its fantastic features and the new features that are on their way, and I really like this PI community and what it is achieving. I actually believe in all this algorithmic stuff and hate to 'paint'. But for all of this to continue does require PI to succeed financially in some way.

And I would be sad if 50% of potential users were discouraged to use PI because of an opinion about what is and what is not acceptable to do with your own image. I think there are loads of 'naff' artistic processes in some other programs...like posterising....but nobody is calling for these in PI. But the mask adjusting tools that are being asked for time and time again are explicitly used by probably the vast majority of astrophotographers...assuming that the vast majority actually use PS or someother similar package.

I just think that we ignore what the majority do at our peril....even if we believe/know there is a better way.

Quote
Sincerely I think Ken would not going to do a significant contribution to this community (not in his present way).

By the way, who is Ken? (Have I missed something?  ???)

Offline Harry page

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Re: Layers
« Reply #27 on: 2010 May 04 10:36:50 »
Hi

Its well known that Juan does do pixinsight for the money  :moneyinmouth: and most of us are very happy with his tech knowlagde and input.

Any way back to masks  >:D

I will not use the P word but the underlying trend is that masks are generaly to difficult to create and manage and as others have said new and easier ( I do not subscribe to the easy is bad club )  ;D

So I would really like the powers that be to think hard about this ,as I may be wrong , but we are all not wrong  >:D

I look forward to new and improved tools  8)

Harry
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Offline RBA

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Re: Layers
« Reply #28 on: 2010 May 04 11:22:06 »
Can't we just call them what they are: PAINTED masks (in capitals).

They are painted masks and I can't find a better term to define them. I'd say that if a person doesn't feel comfortable with the term, it's got to be because they see something wrong with it, in which case, the solution to have a better sense of accomplishment or whatever is, um, not doing it.

About the Juan/business issue. A lot could be said but I look at it this way: I paid for a piece of software. I've got that. Whatever new comes along is VERY welcome, I'm not paying for upgrades (at least not yet) so if Juan wants his personal criteria to determine what comes next, I accept it. Since he is the one accepting suggestions I have even less reasons to complain.  The only drama would be if he started to remove EXISTING tools because he had a change of heart about what we, the clients, should/should not be using. I don't think that's the case. Plus it wouldn't be so much of a drama anyway because i could always keep the older version anyway... Whatever he wants to make off PI, that is personal - I got what I paid for  and a lot more. Not many people in the astroimaging software business can say the same. Some don't even answer emails, despite they overcharge IMHO for one-trick-pony solutions... and I could start to name names...

As for mask and all this philosophical predicament, later, I'm going crazy here with my own clients :)

Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: Layers
« Reply #29 on: 2010 May 04 12:32:43 »
Hi RBA,

I paid for the software as well and like you I would be more than happy if it stayed exactly as it is now and feel I got a really good deal (I guess we all agree its the best!). However, I would be even happier if it kept on developing...which thanks to Juan and the team of people who contribute, it is.

In fact, one of the big deciders for me when I first paid for the commercial version was not so much the software as it existed at the time (I signed up soon after it went commercial) but more the journey....I could see that it really had a fantastic vision, a great (responsive!) team and a great user community. (I actually think this is a big selling point for PI) In a way I paid to be on the bus ride and to support the driver. My real regret is that I cannot contribute more seeing as I have no idea about programing. But I take my hat off to those that do.

I think we should refrain from discussing Juan's personal financial situation...its a bit unfair on him  :-[ ....more that PI as a venture has to be financially successful, or at the very least financially self sustaining. I might be the odd guy out here (maybe not for the first time  :D), I'm running a small company in a niche market that is always in a 'strapped for cash' situation....and I know that I could do lots more cool stuff for my paying customers if only there were a few more of them.  :(

So maybe the 50% of presently unsigned 'astro painters' out there could help pay for more really cool 100% bonified unaldulterated algorithmic process development by buying PI? All you have to do is give them a few 'painting / area selection' tools and they will be happy. Now that would be cool.  ;)

Cheers
         Simon