Author Topic: Paint tools upgrade  (Read 7159 times)

Offline mmirot

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Paint tools upgrade
« on: 2010 March 17 09:18:05 »
The clone stamp is so limited in function. Can't we ad some new tools here?
Example.

I make a good star mask.
It is perfect except for few very large stars excluded on generation.
I wish to add to the mask to cover up the few stars it left out.
It is very hard to do this with clone stamp espiecially if the there very little dark back ground to clone from. Dragging the clone stamp around does not allow me to paint a dark region the over the target areas on the mask.  I have to keep alt-clicking to find a dark region to clone every other move. This too hard.

Also, it would be nice a if we had a paint on mask mode when a mask is selected. That is painting on the image adds to the mask in RT rather than the image.  Right now I can paint on the mask in RT but it is hard to know where in the source image your located. It becomes trial and error.

Max

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #1 on: 2010 March 17 16:28:22 »
Hi again Max,

As I suggested elsewhere, remember that PixelMath will allow you to create a new 'mask' from several 'sub-masks' (i.e. one for small stars, one for medium stars, one for large stars, one for nebulosity, etc.)

The trick is to figure out how to create all the masks in the first place - using Wavelets for example.

Then you just need to understand how to combine the required individual masks in PixelMath.

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline mmirot

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #2 on: 2010 March 18 02:36:48 »
A elegant solution.
However, it is not always that simple to do. 

My solution is quick and would work well. It is also very flexible and can be applied to other problems.

We should add a second crayon to the box. Not so scary IMHO. 

Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.  ::)

Max

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #3 on: 2010 March 18 04:40:22 »
I hear what you are saying Max, and I can (almost) agree with you ::)

My concern is that, once you enter the arena of 'paint-on masks', then you have left the world of 'science' and entered the world of 'art'. And, the way I see things is that you are no longer using the information contained WITHIN your image to coax extra detail out of your image.

As soon as you reach for that 'extra crayon', then you are artificially adding extra information to your image. You have become an artist.

Now, there is nothing actually WRONG with that - artistic images are perfectly acceptable. But, you don't actually NEED a telescope or CCD to create them.

This is VERY MUCH a 'personal' viewpoint. When I 'create' an astro image, what I really want to be able to say is that 'this image' is the 'direct result' of the capturing, calibration and processing stages. I just would not be 'comfortable' with an image that had been 'artificially enhanced'.

So, my point of view is that PixInsight does actually give you ALL the tools that you need - RIGHT NOW - if you are trying to achieve the equivalent of a 'paint-on' mask.

Perhaps what we need more is some ability to invoke a real-time 'multi-layering' approach - where a tweak to one image, that may perhaps be a mask to another, which might, in turn, be combined with a third image, the resultant fourth image then acting as another mask to a fifth image, allows us to view the changes (in real time) to this final image.

And, each image, or mask, at each stage could have an associated set of 'inspection' processes (STF, HistoView, Statistics, PSF, etc) that would allow the user to (optionally) monitor how changes were 'rippling down' to the final image. Similarly, each of these intermediate images could be tied to Process Control windows, allowing  intermediate processes to be applied to them - with resultant 'tweaks' also being 'fed down the chain'.

This would require ALL PI processes to become 'dynamic', such that any change to a 'source' image (or view, preview, etc.) would IMMEDIATELY require a re-application of the process to regenerate the 'output' image (which, naturally, might be a 'source' image for some other part of the overall process).

Any image could be defined as a 'Mask', connected to a Process - meaning that Masks then also become 'dynamic'

'Ripple down' processing could be 'suspended' under user control - to allow one level to be 'tweaked' without having to regenerate ALL susbequent images.

Individual processes could be 'disabled' to temporarily inhibit their effect.

The clever use of multiple Workspaces could be used to separate the heirarchy of the 'ripple down' process into discrete levels. Similarly, key stages in the process could be allocated to a specific Workspace, perhaps even on a secondary 'multiple instance' of PI (a facility soon to be available in PI). which could, in turn, be allocated to a secondary monitor on a multiple monitor setup. The same idea could be applied to the 'inspection' panes (Statistics, HistoView, PSF, etc.), and even to key 'Process' dialogue boxes.

I have even been seriously thinking about a 'Control Panel' process - which might be simply a user-customisable set of sliders, mixers, faders, rotary knobs. etc, each capable of generating a varying 'value' that could be 'assigned' to some adjustable parameter in a Process Dialogue. So, all you are 'looking at' would be your 'final image' - and you can 'shift' some ('invisible' slider and affect that image by way of some VERY CLEVER 'science').

Take this to an ultimate conclusion, and it would be relatively simple (and cheap) to provide a 'mixing desk' of REAL control knobs and sliders, that plugged into a USB port - that would give you this power of control over your image.

So, yes, more crayons ARE what we want. And, hopefully they will become available. And, I am not even really against a set of 'PS' crayons - but I would hope that they would be used to help those PI users who are 'in transit' from PS more than those PI users who have already started to love the power of PI itself.

(And, if you have been reading this Juan, can we assume that all of our suggestions will be out by the end of summer? ::))

Summer 2010, that is :P

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline mmirot

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #4 on: 2010 March 18 08:52:09 »
A big wish. It is very similar to PS layers. Certainly would be nice. Juan plans to do something with SVG at some point.

I am looking for something very simple.

If we could have the option of anchoring the source on the clone stamp this would help.

I agree with your outlook in general. 

However, they are simple tools not nuclear weapons. 
Most people use them fairly responsibly to modify the usual simple artifacts such as halo, a unrejected hot columns etc.
We sould not fear crayons justs because the kids might color on the wall.

Max

Offline Harry page

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #5 on: 2010 March 18 09:07:47 »

We sould not fear crayons justs because the kids might color on the wall.


This is a top answer  :D

And of course layers is one thing PI will need to finish of photoshop  :moneyinmouth:

Harry
Harry Page

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #6 on: 2010 March 18 13:35:15 »
Perhaps what we need is the ability to 'anchor' the CloneStamp tool on a second image - giving you a 'crayon' to airbrush over details from one image to another.

However, 'abusing' this new 'crayon' really would leave 'science' well behind.

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline RBA

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #7 on: 2010 March 22 18:55:56 »
However, 'abusing' this new 'crayon' really would leave 'science' well behind.

I don't know if I need a "crayon" in PI, but for whatever is worth, one can already "depart from science" with the tools PI provides, including of course the clone stamp but not limited to that, so if that's your reason to reject the crayon, I believe your argument can easily be defeated. It's not so much the tools but how you use them IMHO.



Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #8 on: 2010 March 23 05:24:23 »
Niall,

None of us do science...we all make nice images. A histogram stretch and clip takes you away from science. I know what you are referring to....the goal of getting a really beautiful image without 'abusing' or replacing or painting the data, everything in the image is a representation (although massively distorted) of what is actually up there in the sky....I don't know what the word is....but its really not science.

Cheers
         Simon

Offline RBA

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #9 on: 2010 March 23 05:55:52 »
I don't know what the word is....but its really not science.

I call it "astrophotography"  ;)

In any case, if we can spare yet another debate about what is astrophotography and what is not, the better...
AFAIK, there are as many "schools of thought" as there are astrophotographers.


Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #10 on: 2010 March 23 07:26:37 »
I suppose that, by 'science', I mean actually using the information contained WITHIN the image to help extract the 'detail' within the information. And, it is probably mor 'mathematics' than 'science' that I am referring to.

But, we are all effectively 'right'. At the end of the day, does it matter whether you move a slider to help perfect a mask, or whether you 'spray paint' that mask in the first place?

Both methods ARE acceptable. Personally, I feel that PI does actually have the 'power' to let you create (effectively) the 'same' mask as you would be 'spray painting'. OK, there might be areas that 'you' (i.e. 'subjectively') might want to include or exclude - and a 'paint' crayon provides that ability - and probably more quickly, and more easily, than by having to use a further combination of PI processes to do things 'mathemagically'.

But, and again very personally, I would be using that situation to call into question what the 'fault' or 'flaw' was with the actual image data. In other words, why was this 'paint' action necessary? Had an acquisition error ocurred? Was it due to poor calibration or reduction? Had some earlier processing stage been ill-conceived, actually 'creating' an artifact where no such artifact would otherwise have existed?

Yes, it IS all down to a matter of choice, and the greater the flexibility the better.

My own choice is to always be able to take any of my raw images, and all of the processing steps that I (always) save, and to be able to recreate the final image in a step-by-step basis. 'Spray-painting' (and the CloneStamp) just don't sit well with that desire. (In fact, I hardly EVER use CloneStamp - not now, not when the full power of ImageIntegration can already eliminate nearly all of the artifacts that 'used' to need 'stamping' out).

No doubt we will, eventually, have full 'painting' powers in PI - and there will be those who use the new tools to great effect.

I will never turn down new crayons - perhaps I just need to better understand the ones I already use ::)

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline mmirot

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #11 on: 2010 March 23 08:54:02 »

 - and a 'paint' crayon provides that ability - and probably more quickly, and more easily, than by having to use a further combination of PI processes to do things 'mathemagically'.

Yes, it IS all down to a matter of choice, and the greater the flexibility the better.


Cheers,

Most of the time I like the tools we have. They are like fine like twezers, picks and files.
Bust sometimes a hammer is required...


Max

Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: Paint tools upgrade
« Reply #12 on: 2010 March 23 09:56:15 »
And I've been wanting some handy new crayons for quite a while....its embarassing having to go to PaintShopPro just to create a crude mask or block out the unwanted bit in a mask  :-[