Author Topic: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default  (Read 21155 times)

Offline dhalliday

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #15 on: 2010 February 03 17:15:11 »
Simon
I think that is a good (if delicate) point...!!
I bodged around with Pix vs DSS a bit tonight...darned if I can see a huge difference...
Having said that maybe Jack or Juan,or one of the "Jedii" can weigh in on this... >:D

Having said that I am love with other features of Pix...
Just because she has the same shoes as DSS doesn't mean she does not have other great qualities...etc,etc,gag...
Interestingly when I happened to "autostretch" some of my stacks,and look at them "up close"...I see (to my horror  :surprised:)
the same kind of linear "streaking" I was troubled with in DSLR work...
Maybe I should just not look so closely...

Dave
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Offline georg.viehoever

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #16 on: 2010 February 04 00:16:53 »
Simon,

...
And assuming I start using the PI route for stacking....should I still use DSS to do the initial calibration (darks/flats/bias) and alignment....and just output 32bit calibrated/aligned images to read into PI?

this is what I am currently trying to do. I use DSS to get the calibrated images (dark+bias+flats), and use PI to get registration and integration. So far I can tell you that it takes much longer time (due to all those fiddle factors and tricks that you can play with PI), but the results are promissing. More when I have something to show.

Georg
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Offline mmirot

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #17 on: 2010 February 04 08:17:17 »
I am sure most of the time DSS does a very good Job.

Now can someone tell me
what is the " Gaussion Noise estimate" and "average S/N increament" measurement in the Consul output.?

Max

Offline vicent_peris

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #18 on: 2010 February 04 09:37:21 »
Hi,

the ImageIntegration implements my idea of looking for a minimum noise in the resulting image. Noise is evaluated through an algorithm designed by Jean-Luc Starck, where the basic idea is to measure noise where there are no significant wavelet coefficients. The combination of these two ideas, IMHO, is a killer. It's simple, because looks for exactly what we want: to minimize noise. And is robust because the noise estimation is not influenced by local contrast. Just make a comparison without rescaling through noise estimation.

The gaussian noise estimate in the console tells us the noise amplitude of the combined image, and the average S/N increment is the increment in signal to noise ration from the reference subexposure to the combined image.


Vicent.

Offline Harry page

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #19 on: 2010 February 04 09:39:51 »
Hi

Dam vincent beat me to it , I was going to say that Honest   O:)



Harry
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Offline mmirot

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #20 on: 2010 February 04 10:22:25 »
Thanks

Max

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #21 on: 2010 February 04 10:26:19 »
In my 'playing sessions' with ImageIntegration - just before I was shipped out to this infernal 'net-less hell-hole, I found that it paid HUGE dividends to repeat the II process SEVERAL times (and Juan has made that so fantastically quick for use by clever re-use of previously calculated data !!).

Each time I tweak ONLY one of the Sigma sliders (and, obviously, I am talking about Winsorized Sigma Clipping here), and do NOT show the 'other' clipping image (and, if you are listening Juan, I would like to be able to disable the stacked image as well for these iterative tests). Then I throw an Auto-STF at the clipped image I am trying to evaluate, and decide whether more or less clipping is needed.

And, always, LESS CLIPPING (i.e. LARGER Sigma) is better - the limit being that you do want to clip out the rubbish (the corollary being that you do not want Sigma so low that you are clipping out 'useful' data).

Once I have - say - my Upper Limit set, I turn OFF that output clipping image and repeat for the Lower Clipping Sigma value.

Now that I know to look at the summary data in the processing console, I will have a better idea of whether I am clipping 'too much', by way of percentage (more of a problem for the 'dark side', because - at least with the 'light side' you can determine 'when' you have clipped the satellites, planes and cosmic rays, etc.)

I would still have liked the ability to set the 'target percentage' and then see PI iterate the process as needed - returning the Sigma value needed to achieve that level of requested clipping.

And, as I said, it would be useful to be able to avoid screen clutter by ignoring the actual integrated image until the clipping points have been established.

Perhaps the clipped images should also have to be capable of always being output to the same image as well (don't think that they are, at the moment), and perhaps they should be capable of being auto-STF'ed at the same time.

This new section in the PI armoury is, I believe, soon going to be one of its most powerful selling points. It needs a VERY CAREFULLY thought out user interface, backed up with easily assimilated statistical data extracted from all the images in the process 'bucket'.

I also think that the 'Series Measurement' tool available in AIP4WIN needs to be incorporated as soon as possible, with the addition of the ability to 'graph' the statistical data acquired by that process - and a 'live slideshow' that can identify which 'bad image' was causing the 'spike' in the series analysis graphical display - which then provides the ability for that image to be 'dumped' from the current data set.

PI has more than enough power to do all of this - it is just going to take the input from YOU GUYS to give Juan an idea of 'how' the GUI is going to work best.

Sorry - I need to calm down, and I must remember to breathe in between paragraphs.
And to KEEP ON TOPIC [insert 'Topic Police' here] :police:
Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
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Offline georg.viehoever

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #22 on: 2010 February 04 11:03:44 »
Niall,

..
I would still have liked the ability to set the 'target percentage' and then see PI iterate the process as needed - returning the Sigma value needed to achieve that level of requested clipping.

And, as I said, it would be useful to be able to avoid screen clutter by ignoring the actual integrated image until the clipping points have been established.

Perhaps the clipped images should also have to be capable of always being output to the same image as well (don't think that they are, at the moment), and perhaps they should be capable of being auto-STF'ed at the same time.
...
...and a 'live slideshow' that can identify which 'bad image' was causing the 'spike' in the series analysis graphical display - which then provides the ability for that image to be 'dumped' from th
...

you describe exactly the procedure that appeared useful when I played with ImageIntegration, and I think that the tools you describe in the quote above would be really useful. One word on the live slideshow tool: With DSS, I have been screening my images using the FWHM information that you get after calibration. But infortunately, DSS is quite slow when displaying images or changing its STF. Something like that is really missing from PI. And if it would be faster than DSS when loading images and displaying them... Wow...

Cheers,
Georg
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Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #23 on: 2010 February 08 05:30:06 »
Hi Georg,

Well, it will be down to Juan now - hopefully he will get the chance to read these posts, and then can try and incorporate our suggestions.

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
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Offline Harry page

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #24 on: 2010 February 08 09:28:21 »
Hi

I might be stupid ( Ok No comments )  , but I do not see how the percentage thing will work as every image / sub has a different amount of rejected pixels

so how will a fixed figure give best results ?

Harry
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Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #25 on: 2010 February 08 11:55:26 »
Hi Harry,

Let's say you have 2k x 2k images - 4megapixels each. You set the WinSigClip High slider to 2.8 and the HighClip image appears with 20k pixels 'set'. You change the slider to 3.8 and the same clip image now only has 2k pixels 'set'.

In the first example the number of 'clipped' pixels represents about 0.5% of the overall number of pixelsin the image. In the second example the percentage drops to 0.05%.

The 'slider setting' remains set for the whole Integration run - and the 'percentage' result isn't on an image-by-image basis - it applies to the 'results'.

What I still need to have clarified (by Juan) is what the ADU value at a given pixel location, in each of the 'clip images' actually represents.

Is it a purely 'boolean' value - set to '1' when a pixel needed to be 'clipped' in at least one of the source images? Or does it behave as a 'counter', incrementing for every image that requires that pixel to be clipped?

Any info, Juan?

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
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Offline Harry page

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #26 on: 2010 February 08 12:21:06 »


Ok I am stupid  8)

Harry
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Offline dhalliday

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #27 on: 2010 February 08 12:54:52 »
"boolian"...???
A great big Booya to all of you...!!
(CNBC Jim Cramer-Mad Money)

My jury remains out on "winsorized"...
Sometimes I tell a drug rep that I am not going to likely switch to there new (copycat) product,because I don't like the name...!
This goes for "winsorized"...

Is it related to the queen somehow..?
You Brits..!
See my comment in the wavelet noise reduction thread...
I am getting lost...
But slowly found...that wavelet trick of Jacks is potent !

Dave
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Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #28 on: 2010 February 08 15:54:52 »
'Winsorisation' is a term that has come about as a result of the surname of the kind chap who 'invented' it - Mr. Charles Payne Winsor, who died in 1954 (if I remember correctly). Unfortunately we Brits cannot lay claim to his genius (this time) - he was American born and bred - and in no way related to our Royal family, the "Windsors" ::)

Don't dismiss your jury yet - I think that you will find more and more good reasons to rely on Winsorized Clipping :)

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Image Integration, Winsorized Clipping, Default
« Reply #29 on: 2010 February 09 01:37:09 »
Hi,

Again, trying to keep myself up-to-date with this extremely interesting thread. Don't be surprised, though, if my answers form an unordered set, as I'm collecting them throughout the thread seen "as a whole". Here we go.

Quote
(and, if you are listening Juan, I would like to be able to disable the stacked image as well for these iterative tests)

Good point. I'll implement an additional check box in the next version.

Quote
What I still need to have clarified (by Juan) is what the ADU value at a given pixel location, in each of the 'clip images' actually represents.

Is it a purely 'boolean' value - set to '1' when a pixel needed to be 'clipped' in at least one of the source images? Or does it behave as a 'counter', incrementing for every image that requires that pixel to be clipped?

A pixel in a rejection map image has a real value directly proportional to the number of rejected (=clipped) source pixels in the integrated set at the corresponding map coordinates.

Rejection maps, as you probably have guessed at this point, are normalized to the [0,1] range. If a rejection map pixel is 1.0, that means that all source pixels have been rejected at the map pixel coordinates. If a rejection map pixel is 0.0, then no source pixel has been rejected at its coordinates. Put as a simple equation:

r = Nr / N

where r is a rejection map pixel, Nr is the number of rejected pixels at r coordinates, and N is the number of integrated images.

Note that a rejection map can be used as a mask. For example, you can apply a low-pass filtering process (e.g., with wavelets) to the integrated image masked with the high rejection map (or with the maximum of the low and high rejection maps) to compensate for the lack of signal resulting from pixel rejection during integration. This is an effective noise reduction technique where you can take advantage of the —extremely unusual— fact that you know accurately where the noise is, and its relative amplitude.

Quote
I would still have liked the ability to set the 'target percentage' and then see PI iterate the process as needed - returning the Sigma value needed to achieve that level of requested clipping.

Correct me if I haven't understood what you want to do, but I detect some statistical misconception here. The fact is that you really don't want to know what the sigma value has to be in order to reject a given fraction of pixels in the integrated stack. You want to find an optimal sigma value that achieves a good compromise between efficient rejection and minimal SNR degradation. Usually the process to find the correct sigma is iterative: you implement a sort of binary search where the correct value is within the limits of a narrower boundary at each iteration.

If you want to know that sigma value in advance because you already know how many pixels you want to get rejected, then you don't need sigma clipping at all, but something without any statistical basis, such as min/max clipping.

In cases where you don't have enough images to substantiate a sigma clipping procedure (say less than 8 or 10 images), you can use either percentile clipping or averaged sigma clipping. Both algorithms utilize robust statistics and provide excellent results with reduced data sets.

Quote
ImageIntegration implements my idea of looking for a minimum noise in the resulting image. Noise is evaluated through an algorithm designed by Jean-Luc Starck, where the basic idea is to measure noise where there are no significant wavelet coefficients.

It cannot be overemphasized that the original —and extremely brilliant— idea of noise estimation/minimization is due to Vicent Peris.

For those who want to know the original sources, the iterative wavelet-based noise evaluation algorithm that I have implemented has been described here:

Jean-Luc Starck and Fionn Murtagh, Automatic Noise Estimation from the Multiresolution Support. Publications of the Royal Astronomical Society of the Pacific, vol. 110, February 1998, pp. 193-199.


Okay, let's return to work. I'll try to answer more questions later on this thread.
« Last Edit: 2010 February 09 01:47:07 by Juan Conejero »
Juan Conejero
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