Author Topic: Deconvolution => Star burned out ?  (Read 6673 times)

Offline NKV

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Deconvolution => Star burned out ?
« on: 2009 December 08 20:22:35 »
Hello.
I trying to apply deconvolution to 64bit sum of 40x10min H-alpha of IC1805.
The result looking good, but bright stars burned out during deconvolution. It's normal or deconvolution settings is wrong?
Central 4 pixels of the star:
Before   => After Deconvolution
0.6337 => 0.7542
0.6622 => 1.0000
0.7350 => 1.0000
0.7486 => 1.0000

PS tutorial http://pixinsight.com/examples/deconvolution/Gemini-NGC5189/en.html
I choose PSF 0.83: Mean FWHM of the image about 1.95 pixels. 1.95/2.35482=0.828
I am right?

Offline NKV

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Re: Deconvolution => Star burned out ?
« Reply #1 on: 2009 December 09 00:43:35 »
It's good idea or not to use PixelMath $T/2 before deconvolution?

Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: Deconvolution => Star burned out ?
« Reply #2 on: 2009 December 09 00:47:22 »
Hi,

I think you just need to use some Dynamic Range Extension. Move the High Range slider a small distance to the right and try it again. This will rescale the rest of the image so that the peak is still not saturated.....so the rest of the image will appear a bit darker, but your star will not be saturated.

Cheers
         Simon

Offline NKV

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Re: Deconvolution => Star burned out ?
« Reply #3 on: 2009 December 09 02:14:12 »
Hello Simon.
Move the High Range slider a small distance to the right and try it again.
Small distance is not help.
And if move High Range slider to 1.0 not got total solution. Result:
0.6337 => 0.3757
0.6622 => 0.5777
0.7350 => 0.9935
0.7486 => 1.0000
Also i got much more noise in the dark area.

My be my mistake in PSF settings? My astrograph 1.7" per pixel. H-alpha Airy Disk 2.2" (1.3 pixels). Result after sum FWHM 3" (it's FWHM 1.95 in pixels).
How to choose StdDev and Shape?

Thank's for support.
Nikolay.

Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: Deconvolution => Star burned out ?
« Reply #4 on: 2009 December 09 04:38:38 »
Hi Nicolay,

The High Range slider seems to have helped stop the star saturating, so that part looks like it worked.

Regarding the noise in the dark areas....it would be best to apply the deconvolution through a mask so that you are not applying deconvolution to the dark areas....deconvolution doesn;t work well on lower S/N regions. So create a star mask with nice soft stars (i.e. with enough space around the stars for the deconvolution to work), apply the mask to the image and then try the convolution again. You might need to play with the star mask dilation to get the best results.

I hope that helps.

Cheers
          Simon

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Deconvolution => Star burned out ?
« Reply #5 on: 2009 December 09 06:32:08 »
Guys,

Forgive my ignorance here, but I 'thought' I understood the principle of Deconvolution :-

In an ideal world, we would image a 'point source' like a star, and it would cover 'only' ONE pixel on our CCD - irrespective of any practical 'magnification' we threw at the problem.

But, reality means that the 'point source' actually illuminates SEVERAL 'pixels' on our CCD, the exact number being fundamentally set by things like 'seeing', or other optical/atmospheric distortions (ignoring any tracking issues for the moment)

The 'distribution' of the dispertion can be approximated by 2-D 'curves' such as a Gaussian 'surface', a PSF, a FWHM 2-D curve, etc.

If our image processing software knew what the 'convolution filter' was that caused the 'single-pixel' reality to become distorted into the 'star bloat' that we ACTUALLY see, then it could reverse the process, and 'deconvolve' the actual image, to try and recover the 'ideal' image from it - or, at least hopefully, to 'improve' the 'reality' somewhat.

So, the bit I don't understand is that - once a 'Deconvolution Filter' has been defined, that works for the stars (i.e. it does improve their 'spread out' shape) - then why would that same filter, applied to the whole image, now cause problems with the 'background' data.

Now, I fully accept that their may well be empirical evidence that Deconvolution DOES do 'nasty things' to the background. I just can't see why - and I don't remember reading about it in HAIP (although, sometimes, I have difficulty remembering what I had for breakfast, so the failure means nothing!!)

Is there something that I HAVE forgotten? Should I re-read HAIP again (for about the tenth time !!)

Is my continuing utter failure to deconvolve ANYTHING just symptomatic of a cr@p camera (Meade DSI-IIC and DSI-IIPro)?

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline NKV

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Re: Deconvolution => Star burned out ?
« Reply #6 on: 2009 December 09 07:14:09 »
Regarding the noise in the dark areas....it would be best to apply the deconvolution through a mask
Thank's Simon. It's work.

But now i totally don't understand how to choose "Shape" :-\

"Deconvolution preview" generate many result, but all is very strange. How to choose best one?

Offline NKV

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Re: Deconvolution => Star burned out ?
« Reply #7 on: 2009 December 09 20:30:56 »
In an ideal world, we would image a 'point source' like a star, and it would cover 'only' ONE pixel on our CCD
No, no, no. In an ideal world, we we get image of Airy Disk.

So, maybe diffraction is key to understanding:
I don't understand is that - once a 'Deconvolution Filter' has been defined, that works for the stars (i.e. it does improve their 'spread out' shape) - then why would that same filter, applied to the whole image, now cause problems with the 'background' data.

I hope that helps.

Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Deconvolution => Star burned out ?
« Reply #8 on: 2010 January 03 11:41:13 »
Hi Nikolay,

Quote
The result looking good, but bright stars burned out during deconvolution. It's normal or deconvolution settings is wrong?

It is completely normal. Deconvolution will tend to saturate all bright objects. Think of it in the following way: what is the "ideal" image of a star? quick answer: a point (well, an Airy disk in the real world, but we are speaking in purely abstract terms). Deconvolution will try to concentrate the whole flux of a star's image into something as close as possible to a point, provided your PSF is reasonably accurate. That's why the image of your star is smaller after deconvolution, and that's also why it is saturated: the same flux has been concentrated into less square pixels.

The dynamic range extension feature of Deconvolution can be used to palliate this problem to some extent. By increasing the high range extension parameter, Deconvolution will have more room (that is, a wider dynamic range) to accommodate brightened pixels. The price to pay is a loss of dynamics in the final image: the resulting dynamic range will be larger, which yields a darker image. This can of course be fixed with a nonlinear transformation.

The best way to prevent saturation problems, along with dynamic range extension, is to protect the brightest stars with a suitable star mask. As you only need protection for really bright stars (usually), star masks are relatively easy to build for deconvolution.

In the same way, a mask may be necessary to restrict deconvolution to high SNR regions, that is, to protect the background and transition regions between low and high SNR areas. This is typically a luminance mask. Our implementation of regularized deconvolution is extremely efficient so many times these background masks are not really necessary, or can be quite permissive.

You can combine a luminance mask and a star mask very easily with PixelMath (usually by just multiplying both masks).

Quote
No, no, no. In an ideal world, we we get image of Airy Disk.

Correct. The diffraction figure is the absolute physical limit that defines the theoretical spatial resolution achievable with a given aperture. Naturally, we never get something similar to the Airy disk as the PSF of a deep-sky image, since atmospheric turbulence and instrumental imperfections are always much larger. A "perfect" spatial telescope, as Hubble if it were "perfect", would be a nearly diffraction-limited instrument.

Quote
But now i totally don't understand how to choose "Shape"

The shape parameter defines the kurtosis or peakedness of the PSF. When shape is 2, we have a normal (Gaussian) distribution. When shape is less than 2, the PSF has a leptokurtic (peaked) profile, and when shape is greater than 2 the PSF is mesokurtic (flat).

Always think in "inverse terms" when applying deconvolution: Deconvolution will try to undo the smearing caused by a previous convolution with the PSF. So if your PSF is leptokurtic (peaked), deconvolution will tend to cause less sharpening (or small-scale edge enhancement) than if you apply a mesokurtic (flat) PSF.

Obviously, this discussion assumes that you're finding your PSF by manual trial-error work. For deep-sky images, the PSF is usually fitted to a Gaussian (shape=2), as this is the "natural" probability distribution used to model atmospheric seeing phenomena.

Non-Gaussian PSFs are more useful to deconvolve high-resolution lunar and planetary images. For example, a peaked PSF can be used to approximate the profile of an Airy disk. The shape parameter allows you to control the effect caused by deconvolution on critical image structures. This is particularly important for lunar images, as I explained in a specific tutorial.
Juan Conejero
PixInsight Development Team
http://pixinsight.com/

Offline NKV

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Re: Deconvolution => Star burned out ?
« Reply #9 on: 2010 January 03 20:13:01 »
Juan, thank you very much.