Author Topic: Some unfair comments  (Read 14953 times)

Offline Ruediger

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Re: Some unfair comments
« Reply #15 on: 2019 December 20 03:44:58 »


I thinks this needs some brainstorming because there are some use cases to consider in order to avoid collateral damage - and again complaints.

I'd use the rule: you're a beta tester? so NO COMPLAIN!!!   
Only feedback!

 ;) ;) ;)

I doubt that this is the right approach. Do you think you will encourage a large field test group to participate with that attitude?
Moreover no one is willing to test, if you harm or endanger their productive environment. How many would set up a secondary PC only for doing beta testing?
That is something you can expect from paid professional tester, but not the majority of a product with comparable small user group.

I think the easier and safer you can parallely test new versions, the more are willing to do so and contribute - and that is the aim of the game.
« Last Edit: 2019 December 20 03:57:43 by Ruediger »
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Ruediger

Offline wadeh237

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Re: Some unfair comments
« Reply #16 on: 2019 December 20 08:38:14 »


I thinks this needs some brainstorming because there are some use cases to consider in order to avoid collateral damage - and again complaints.

I'd use the rule: you're a beta tester? so NO COMPLAIN!!!   
Only feedback!

 ;) ;) ;)

I doubt that this is the right approach. Do you think you will encourage a large field test group to participate with that attitude?
Moreover no one is willing to test, if you harm or endanger their productive environment. How many would set up a secondary PC only for doing beta testing?
That is something you can expect from paid professional tester, but not the majority of a product with comparable small user group.

I think the easier and safer you can parallely test new versions, the more are willing to do so and contribute - and that is the aim of the game.

On the contrary, beta testers are...testers.

In order to be an effective beta tester, you need to put aside your own goals and actually test the product.  This means that you should be keeping accurate records of what you are doing.  When you come across a problem, you should be able to do some level of investigation yourself, so that you can create an actionable bug report for the development team.  Depending on the needs of the development team, you may be able to do your own work, with your own workflow.  But you should be prepared to set aside your own work to do various tasks as requested by the development team.

I am a professional software developer who's run a number of large scale beta tests.  Testers who fall into the above category get lots of our attention.  We try to discourage folks who are mainly interested in early access to the "latest and greatest".  We inevitably get them, and they are useful for "taking the temperature" of the product to see how much noise they generate.  But it is a lot of work to follow up on "complaints" without sufficient supporting documentation to investigate the issues.  With a small enough development team, it might actually hinder product development.

I've also participated on a very limited number of beta tests for astronomy software.  In one case, I put my own imaging goals on hold for almost a year so that I could focus on the software I was testing.  It was work on my part, but it made the end product better, which was what I wanted to help with.

As for PixInsight, I think that it's an impressive accomplishment.  I know what goes into making a product like this, and my hat is off to Juan and his team.  There is a huge amount of hidden work that goes into making something like this work in a cross platform environment, especially when one of the platforms is Windows.  While it's true that there have been some stability problems with Windows in the recent versions, it looks very much to me like Juan is making the right changes to resolve them (and to be fair, most of the the root problems aren't even in PixInsight itself, but in 3rd party libraries on which it depends).

Offline Ruediger

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Re: Some unfair comments
« Reply #17 on: 2019 December 20 09:10:50 »
Hi Wadeh237,

I agree to some extent to your arguments. But your argumentation matches mainly to a huge tester group. When we do a field test, which means 10 to 20 percent of the users (equals to 15,000 to 30,000 participants) we follow your arguments too. But usually you isolate the development team from the feedback. This is the task of the quality management team, and not of the developers. They have to consolidate and validate the feedback and channel it to the dev team.

But this is not applicable here. Juan wants to encourage people to test, and that you can only achieve IMHO if you keep the hurdles low. That is my experience from many small projects with strictly limited resources. Otherwise you will get only some hard core users.

I think it is also required to distinguish between a beta test in a relatively small group, or a large field test with release candidates.

BTW it was only my personal opinion and experience. In the end Juan has to decide and try it out himself, so there is absolute no need to start a discussion. It was only to give some perspective.
We should focus on supporting Juan as good as we can in the way it helps Juan most - whatever way he goes. 😉
« Last Edit: 2019 December 20 10:27:34 by Ruediger »
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Ruediger

Offline Philippe B.

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Re: Some unfair comments
« Reply #18 on: 2019 December 20 09:26:36 »
Don't worry Juan, we are a lot of PI users who really love Pixinsight.
these guys are "fast food" eaters. They want all features for free and their big problem is they take poor quality images and they think PI will give them a nice image from their poor computer with fully cracked software... no way.
Fore sure, while developing, you cannot be sure all bugs will be fully corrected when publishing release. But the main point is your reactive action when a bug is discovered : corrected in few hours or days.

I would like to congratulate you and your team for 1.8.8.x version with new process and algorithms and also stability (I am under OSX)


Philippe,
a Pixinsight user since v1.0 for first version (even before for Denoise ACDNR) then 1.2 or 1.3 for license version.

Offline wadeh237

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Re: Some unfair comments
« Reply #19 on: 2019 December 20 12:15:52 »
BTW it was only my personal opinion and experience. In the end Juan has to decide and try it out himself, so there is absolute no need to start a discussion. It was only to give some perspective.
We should focus on supporting Juan as good as we can in the way it helps Juan most - whatever way he goes. 😉

No worries.  My response was my personal opinion as well, to add a counter point for additional thought.

I think that we are mostly in agreement, especially in your last sentence above.

Offline Ruediger

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Re: Some unfair comments
« Reply #20 on: 2019 December 20 13:26:05 »
BTW it was only my personal opinion and experience. In the end Juan has to decide and try it out himself, so there is absolute no need to start a discussion. It was only to give some perspective.
We should focus on supporting Juan as good as we can in the way it helps Juan most - whatever way he goes. 😉


No worries.  My response was my personal opinion as well, to add a counter point for additional thought.

I think that we are mostly in agreement, especially in your last sentence above.

Absolutely   ^-^ 👍
CS
Ruediger

Offline dchamberlain

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Re: Some unfair comments
« Reply #21 on: 2019 December 31 11:02:59 »
As a retired software developer and development manager I can say this: there is no such thing as software without bugs. This is especially true for projects deployed on multiple platforms using different versions of operating systems  and hardware configurations.  If someone is expecting no faults in technology then they should not be using it.

However,  the rest of us understand there will be glitches and being responsible users of technology we must work together with support teams and the community to work towards solutions.  This is how we move forward rather than stand still. Testing can at best help to mitigate against frequent problems but it can never fully eliminate issues.

To those who complain,  step forward and be part of the solution or stay out of the way.

Dale

Offline dave_galera

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Re: Some unfair comments
« Reply #22 on: 2019 December 31 11:58:19 »
As a retired software developer and development manager I can say this: there is no such thing as software without bugs. This is especially true for projects deployed on multiple platforms using different versions of operating systems  and hardware configurations.  If someone is expecting no faults in technology then they should not be using it.

However,  the rest of us understand there will be glitches and being responsible users of technology we must work together with support teams and the community to work towards solutions.  This is how we move forward rather than stand still. Testing can at best help to mitigate against frequent problems but it can never fully eliminate issues.

To those who complain,  step forward and be part of the solution or stay out of the way.

Dale

+1 also a software developer and IT director in the commercial main frame sector
Dave

Offline jkmorse

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Re: Some unfair comments
« Reply #23 on: 2020 January 03 08:17:46 »
Juan,

Please know that there are a host of your users, myself especially included, who would not know what to do without you and your continuing efforts to improve your awesome product.  As you know, I have been producing a PI workbook for years now and continue to get requests for it from new users regularly who are discovering everything PI has to offer.

As a user for years now, I would also welcome the opportunity to do any beta testing that may be necessary.

As others have said already, those who appreciate your efforts scoff at those who, without any understanding of all you do, question updates that continue to make PI the only real option for serious astrophotographers.

Best regards,

Jim 
Really, are clear skies, low wind and no moon that much to ask for? 

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