Author Topic: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10  (Read 23042 times)

Offline mmirot

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #30 on: 2010 July 27 10:37:18 »
Quote
you might have levels, curves, hue, saturation on a layer.




 A layered composition tool is nice and it will be available in PixInsight. As I see it, however, its main purpose will be implementing a set of bitmap and vector-based drawing and painting tools.


I don't see the main advantage of layers as drawing and painting. You can leave these tools out of the discussion totally.

I see it as a  UI to combine images.

It works well for setting up complex color mapping with both or either RGB and Narrowband data.

It is very simple to see the combined effect of multiples masks on an image. These can be set up as additive or subtractive combinations too.  

Weighting or "Blending" of a process to the parent image.

It should be noted that PS does not do complex processes like sharpening in layer in Real time. It finishes/excutes the process first. Then the effect is composited.  

We achieve many of these functions already in PI. The question in my mind at what priorty do these additions fit in.  Also, how to do it in a manner that make more sense for scientific imaging rather than art and advertising.  The basic concept of improving the UI to do  certain PI math functions is fine goal IMO.

On another topic.
 Sander and I were impressed  by the use of the FFT at MWAIC to identify structures such as stars.
Could this exploited to identify stars. Would it be different or faster wavelets ??

Max




Offline Nocturnal

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #31 on: 2010 July 27 10:45:41 »
Hi Max,

PJSR can do FFTs on images so it must be available in PCL as well. I haven't seen it referenced in any of the modules but maybe it's being used underwater.

I ran some FFTs on my bias frames using AIP4WIN and ImageJ. It's too bad Kevin's talk ended before he got to the part where he explained what to do next after you've discovered there are non-random patterns in your files. I'm still mulling on that.
Best,

    Sander
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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #32 on: 2010 July 27 11:01:06 »
Not sure why my dad (he flew in from Holland to attend) sent this specific picture to me but here it is:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cHjleICbR_tZ91QqlsWAhg?feat=directlink

Haha! very good dude. So that's how competing products see PixInsight. Great!  >:D
Juan Conejero
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Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #33 on: 2010 July 27 11:04:42 »
Yes, it is used underwater ;) For instance, the Wiener filter (now under the Restoration filters, in deconvolution) uses a FFT to deconvolve the image in the fourier space, and then it is returned to the normal space. Please note that the PCL handles complex valued images too, but they are not supported right now by the UI.
In the script realm, take a look at FFTRegistration.

I have been for a long time wanting to write a simple process that creates the FFT transform of a image... but so far I had not found the need to do that :P Maybe the time is coming...

BTW, I'm not sure of the benefit of using the FFT to identify stars. Since it is very similar to a Dirac delta, it shoud be something like a constant value at the fourier space, right? For a pattern (lots of stars), of course, it could be better than other approaches, but I don't see the benefit for one single star... Of course a wavelets approach or just a simple mass center algorithmcould do the job faster and in a very robust way.
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline Nocturnal

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #34 on: 2010 July 27 11:20:14 »
Actually the star detection was just one aspect of the use of FFTs. I realize there are several other methods :) I thought the pattern detection in bias frames was interesting. Yes, I was looking at the FFTRegistration script. That's how I knew there's a built in FFT function in PCL :)
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #35 on: 2010 July 27 11:26:27 »

Quote
PJSR can do FFTs on images so it must be available in PCL as well

Indeed it is. You can perform Fourier transforms of one-dimensional and two-dimensional data. FFTs are being extensively used in several modules, mainly for convolution. One of them is Deconvolution, where an FFT-based convolution routine (available in PCL as the FFTConvolution class) is used when the PSF kernel size is larger than 15x15 by default (for smaller kernels, a direct convolution in the spatial domain is more efficient). The same for UnsharpMask. FFTs are also being used in StarMask and a few other modules, such as RestorationFilter, and in the FFTRegistration script.

I have planned a DynamicFourierTransform tool. It will be, as it name suggests, an interactive tool that will allow you to explore and change (with standard painting tools) the frequency component of the Fourier transform of an image. Then the tool will perform the inverse transform (a la ATWT). It's actually quite easy, and funny.

Nevertheless, wavelet transforms are much more suitable than Fourier transforms for most of the image processing tasks carried out in astronomy. One reason is that the FT is not localized, while the WT (with the à trous algorithm) is. Localized here means that you can differentiate on the transform the components that correspond to a particular location in spatial coordinates. In addition, the à trous transform is redundant, which means that each scale is an image of the same dimensions as the original. The FT only works —and works extremely well for that— to isolate image structures as a function of their frequency. In contrast, the WT lets you isolate structures as a function of their scale, or relative size. The latter is much more useful for the majority of tasks that we perform. 

For a star detector, the WT is much better than the FT. This is because the stars are not, in general, distributed uniformly on the image, or distributed following a patterned distribution. What characterizes stars is basically their sizes. For this reason I have implemented a wavelet-based star detector in StarAlignment, which works remarkably well (although it has its own drawbacks, as everything). The StarMask tool is also based on a multiscale transform, although in this case it is a morphological multiscale transform.

It's too bad Kevin's talk ended before he got to the part where he explained what to do next after you've discovered there are non-random patterns in your files. I'm still mulling on that.

This is indeed one task for which the FT is obviously an ideal tool: find regular patterns. Once you've find a feature characterized in frequency, you can alter the FT (only the frequency component, never touch the phase component) to remove that feature. The classical example is removing printing patterns on scanned images. You will be able to do this with the DynamicFourierTransform (or a similar tool written by somebody —someone dares? it is actually very easy). I strongly recommend you a thorough reading of Digital Image Processing by González et al.
Juan Conejero
PixInsight Development Team
http://pixinsight.com/

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #36 on: 2010 July 27 11:27:37 »
Yes, that's something I wanted to do... I think that a Fourier based modification may deal very nicely with the famous Canon banding problem (and other artifacts like that). Since they may be modelled as stright lines in X or Y, they should a vertical or horizontal line at the fourier space, centered. An attenuation of those signals may be the trick.
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
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http://www.pixinsight.com

Offline Nocturnal

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #37 on: 2010 July 27 11:55:09 »
For now my interest is in comparing camera performance, based on bias frames and perhaps uniformly lit flat frames. FFTs can help detect patterns, as you said.

Thanks for the additional information on this topic.
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
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Offline georg.viehoever

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #38 on: 2010 July 27 13:34:53 »
... I think that a Fourier based modification may deal very nicely with the famous Canon banding problem (and other artifacts like that).

I am not sure if this is possible with FFT  :sad: The bands are not in a regular pattern, except for the fact that they are horizontal. But you are probably more of an FFT expert than I am  :-[

Georg
Georg (6 inch Newton, unmodified Canon EOS40D+80D, unguided EQ5 mount)

Offline Nocturnal

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #39 on: 2010 July 27 13:55:10 »
If you're interested in exploring this you could install ImageJ (free) and see if any FFT peaks stand out in your images. If they do then they can be suppressed.
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline mmirot

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #40 on: 2010 July 27 15:20:17 »
The basic ideas that QSI ccd present are here  http://www.qsimaging.com/ccd_noise.html

You might see what the pattern of the FFT looks like.
 If you figure out which portion of the FFT of image contains the band noise you can erase it on the FFT.

 The bands would be gone from image when it was converted back to a real image.  This assume this is  non random "noise"

Max

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #41 on: 2010 July 27 16:13:16 »
Yes - the current lack of FFT in PI remains one of the very few reasons that I still have to rely on packages OTHER than PixInsight to review or modify my image data.

It doesn't matter that I may only have to rely on the likes of AIP4WIN, occasionally, to check for 'fixed patterns' in the likes of Biases, Darks and Flats - it would just be a 'nice' Process to have available in the PCL 'core'. Isn't that the whole point of having the most comprehensive collection of tools in the best toolbox available ::)

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
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Offline Nocturnal

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #42 on: 2010 July 27 17:54:31 »
Hi Max,

looks like Kevin wrote up a lot more on his site so I'll have a close look at that, thanks!

Hi Niall,

if you look at the FFTRegistration script you'll see that FFT is easy to extract from an image. I'd say with your PJSR experience it should be a snap to put together a script that does the FFT. Personally I don't mind it too much if I have to use different tools every now and then.
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #43 on: 2010 July 27 18:00:23 »
If I'm not wrong, common banding should be seeing as a vertical line.
See here for some examples: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~brayer/vision/fourier.html

So, a simple multiplication of those coefficients by a attenuating mask could be enough (from a very naive approach, of course). Anyway, this is a field I'm very interested in. Maybe I'll jump in here after I deal with the high dynamic range compression algorithm :D
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline mmirot

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Re: I'll be speaking at MWAIC '10
« Reply #44 on: 2010 July 27 21:51:20 »
The trick will be how to code slider to mask certain components. Unless you just take it into PS and use the paint brush  :P

Btw, no one commented on my layers statements.

Max