Author Topic: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI  (Read 26199 times)

Offline Fco. Bosch

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I think sometimes that perhaps PI need in the "process console" or in the menus an systematical ordered set of processes for the begin of the work, like color calibration (debayerize), star aligment (align), image integration (stack) etc, well ordered for the new users of PI, that when they see an enormus set of functions dont know how to begin and how to continue. An alphabetical order can confuse those that don't know previously the logical order of the preprocess and the firts steps of the process. I think that an basic systematic order of the fundamental -only these, not all- preprocesses and process can help to introduce the people -a lot of people- in the deeps of PI.
   The creativity of everyone can't be ordered, but she implicate a basic set of steps that all have to do. And these I think must be ordered -for help the people-.

A veces pienso que quizás PI necesita en la "consola de procesos" o en los menús un conjunto de procesos sistemáticamente ordenados para empezar a trabajar, como calibración de color (debayerizar), alineación de estrellas (alinear), integración de imágenes (amontonar) etc, bien ordenados para los nuevos usuarios de PI, que cuando ven un enorme conjunto de funciones no saben cómo empezar y por dónde continuar. Un orden alfabético puede confundir a los que no conocen previamente el orden lógico del preprocesamiento y los primeros pasos del procesamiento. Pienso que un orden sistemático de menús básico de los fundamentales pasos del preprocesamiento y procesamiento -solo de éstos, no de todos- puede ayudar a introducir a un montón de gente en las profundidades de PI. Naturalmente esto no significa suprimir ningún menú actual, sino solo añadir uno nuevo.
   La creatividad de cada uno no puede ser ordenada; pero ella implica un conjunto básico de pasos que todos tienen que dar. Y pienso que éstos tienen que estar ordenados -para ayudar a la gente-.
Fco. Bosch

Offline Nocturnal

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Re: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #1 on: 2009 May 20 07:07:43 »
Hi,

I'm not sure PI needs this order implemented in some kind of GUI element. It's 'simply' a matter of documentation. Earlier examples went very deep and went over the heads of at least some users. The new video tutorials Juan put together I think are a tremendous help but you have to watch them all. I posted a basic PI processing flow some time ago and Harry posted his videos. I'm close to publishing a first PI tutorial in AstrophotoInsights.

So perhaps PI can at least have a few pages of HTML documentation included with it. This documentation could point to the various resources that are available and list a set of steps to get get started.

If you still feel that PI should somehow implement this sequence, how do you propose it does this?
Best,

    Sander
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Offline Fco. Bosch

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Re: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #2 on: 2009 May 20 10:23:13 »
I’m agree that a good tutorial is fundamental; but I thinks isn’t incompatible with a intuitive o simple to use software. I think that it can be good for much new users and for PI.
Several weeks ago a new user wrote: I’m new, I start from scratch and I`m lost … I don’t know how to begin … etc
So I propose that news users can approach a guided PI, with a simple menu, that direct them step by step with the fundamentals processes of registry and process. I wan’t to delete any actual menu, but to add one, the “steps to follow” or “basic steps” menu, with the systematic logic steps, from the first forward.
We can distinguish between processes applicable:
to a set of raw images (preprocess or registry)
to a final image (process).
So (or any else …):

Steps to follow or basic  steps, for

I)   VIEW WHAT WE HAVE
Sreen transfer function

II)   REGISTRY of several raw images
1
.   color
   a.   blackground neutralization
   b.   color calibration
2.    star aligment
3.   Image Integration

III)   PROCESS of a single image final registered
1.   DBE for blackground
2.   Histogram transformation
3.   Curves transformation
4.   ACDRN for gradients
5.    …
(this is only a proposal of order ¡!)
Fco. Bosch

Offline Fco. Bosch

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Re: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #3 on: 2009 May 20 10:55:57 »
Sorry!!  :surprised:; I don't want to delete any actual menu !!!; only add one ...
Fco. Bosch

Offline Astrocava

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Re: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #4 on: 2009 May 21 07:44:50 »

II)   REGISTRY of several raw images
1
.   color
   a.   blackground neutralization
   b.   color calibration



Don't agree with those steps.

Testing with my DSLR images (will try to post someday my results), my best workflow now is:

1.Alignment with DSS with rgb channel background calibration (sorry Juan, I have tried your recommendation but...)
2.ATW noise reduction
3.DBE 

With DBE I adquire a good neutral background, so no need to do that again. I'm testing if color calibration will help after all those process.

Sergio
Moonfish ED80 over a Meade LX200GPS 8"

Offline Nocturnal

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Re: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #5 on: 2009 May 21 08:01:17 »
Hi,

and indeed that is the problem with any type of process flow being baked into PI. How do you generalize a process that is so dependent on the equipment being used, target being shot, conditions (light pollution etc) and experience of the user? Not to mention the goals of the user? Scientific analysis has different goals than 'pretty pictures'.

So I think that any proposed solution should allow for several work flows, not just one. Preferably the work flow should be loadable so that we can distribute them. I guess this can easily be done with a text or HTML file so really there's no need for any changes to PI.

Clearly this was not the intent of the original poster so perhaps you could explain what type of PI<->Workflow integration you are looking for?
Best,

    Sander
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Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
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Offline georg.viehoever

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Re: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #6 on: 2009 May 21 09:05:28 »
Hi,

I think the key issue here is documentation, plus some supporting functionality. There are some typical flows, and some tools are used more often than others at a certain position in the flow. While the tutorials available on the web are certainly valuable, some text (or links) included with PI pointing to a Beginners Guide, and maybe  a category "Try these first 1.,2.,3." in the Process explorer would certainly help. Those of us who have mastered the basics can continue to explore the depth of PI, the implementation effort would be small, and those who are just scared away by PI's complexity have a smoother learning curve.

My 2 cents...

Georg

PS: In my case (6 inch Newton, Canon EOS40D, urban light pollution, prefered targets are nebulae and galaxies), the flow typically is:
- stack with DSS
- Load to PI
- STF
- Crop
- DBE
- Intensity transforms (Histogram, Color)
- ACDR
- HDRWavelet

But there are as many variants of this  as I have made  pictures...
« Last Edit: 2009 May 21 16:36:41 by georg.viehoever »
Georg (6 inch Newton, unmodified Canon EOS40D+80D, unguided EQ5 mount)

Offline Fco. Bosch

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Re: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #7 on: 2009 May 21 12:37:42 »
The concrete steps I proposed aren’t the fundamental for me. I think that the experienced users and developers can with authority establish them much better. In my modest proposal I forget to say that they are differences due to use of CCD o DSRL: the beginner must also combine the tree channels if he use CCD with the tree basic filters.
I agree completely that the steps are different according the instrumental, but for the beginner the essential or basic is only if they must combine or not the channels if they use CCD with filters, or DSLR. They don’t know more important differences produced by their instruments. The rest is : de-bayerize, (perhaps dark subtract) (in what order?), align, stack. And then the basics of process.
What is this basic process, I cannot say with security, and surely they are differences dues to great types of objects (moon, nebulae …), but the very basics of processing work are surely common of the most cases. Ever we must use the histogram, the curves, and something more. I only seek for a basic guide for the beginner, with a menu system that orientates them in the manifold processes in PI.
These menus aren’t obligatory, only a set of the most common processes ordered in the way they normally must be used. A menu for beginners … Surely they have their creativity and can alter it …
But I beg the advanced users forget they actual knowledge and experience, and remember when they also war beginners; I think we need the basic steps they made when they can’t distinguish and apply the manifold possibilities of PI. Only so the beginners will be able to master the deeps of PI. If we can begin, we will be able to end.
Finally, I think that is necessary both, tutorials and menus, because the menus are a part of the software that can be immediately used, or we can begin with them.
Fco. Bosch

Offline Nocturnal

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Re: systematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #8 on: 2009 May 21 15:59:54 »
Hi,

in Holland we have a saying that goes something like "a cow quickly forgets it was once a calf". I hope this does not apply to me but I try to stay mindful of beginners in my assessment of this discussion. I did not get comfortable with PI until I learned the basics of image processing. This was due to a combination of reading books, trial and error (lots of that) and asking questions here and elsewhere. I also learned a lot from the tutorials here.

I do not think image combination should be part of any image *processing* work flow. It should be separate. Users who use an external stacker like DSS or CCDStack or whatever can then simply skip the image combination section and use the processing one instead. I consider the imaging process to have distinct steps that should not be globbed together:

- acquisition
- calibration and stacking
- channel combination (since I image OSC I skip this)
- processing
- publishing

My workflow is very similar to Georg's. Probably with new tools in 1.5 I'll start making some adjustments.

Anyway, it will not be hard to write a JSR script that presents workflows to the user. Similarly modules could be written that do this. This way no PI changes are required.
Best,

    Sander
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Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #9 on: 2009 September 14 07:14:55 »
How about a favorites list at the process explorer that is not sorted by alphabetical order, and the user may set that order?

Personally, I hardly use the favorites menu... for me it is much easier to find the processes under the propper category, but this implementation may be very helpful.
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline Simon Hicks

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Re: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #10 on: 2009 September 15 12:39:00 »
Quote
How about a favorites list at the process explorer that is not sorted by alphabetical order, and the user may set that order?

I would second that....I would find it very useful. I take Sander's point regarding everyone's process being different because of different equipment. But my process is roughly the same each time....well, I like to use a set of processes in a certain order....well most of the time.  :D So it would be really great if there was somewhere where I could put my favourite Processes in the order that I use them.

But it would also be nice if I could put some of the Utilities in this list as well.....these seem to get left out of the Favourites list altogether....which is a shame because some of them are really cool.

Offline Nocturnal

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Re: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #11 on: 2009 September 15 12:40:44 »
That sounds good to me too. The addition of scripts is a great idea Simon!
Best,

    Sander
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Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: sistematic order of processes for aid to introduce in PI
« Reply #12 on: 2009 September 15 12:53:53 »
I was thinking that a "workaround" is possible using process icons and process containers...


Btw, a question I never made to Juan... What is the Script process for? :D
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
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