Author Topic: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God  (Read 6139 times)

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #15 on: 2017 July 26 04:47:31 »
BTW, perhaps somewhat off-topic, is there some way to have color selections other than just RGB?  I'm not smart enough to really understand color and color possibilities, but I often find myself wishing I had more selection choice than just RGB.  Maybe it's a programming/digital nightmare.
« Last Edit: 2017 July 26 05:01:25 by rodmichael »
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline rdryfoos

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #16 on: 2017 July 26 04:54:41 »
There are--but you need additional filters I think. 
Rodd

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #17 on: 2017 July 26 04:59:40 »
Somewhere on here there was a pixel math formula that is supposed to mimic the visual palette quite closely.  I can never remember it though-- it is something like

Red: 85%SII and 15%Ha
Green: 85% OIIIO and 15% Ha
Blue OIII

Something like that--there are only 3 filters and 3 colors and I still can never remember the percentages!  The above is wrong--but it is similar.  The use of Ha is restricted.  But then if you use Ha for a luminance you get the structure.   Anyway--in teh tutorials and in images I have seen it does look quite natural
Rodd

That's said to be a favored palette of Juan Conajero's.  But I hadn't heard that it is felt to be more natural.  I've tried it on these images and have just not chosen to go very far with it.  Maybe I'll go back and give it another try.

BTW, it's actually:
SII 50% + Ha 50% = Red
OIII 85% = Ha 15% = Green
OIII 100% = Blue
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline rdryfoos

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #18 on: 2017 July 26 05:05:05 »
Its target specific I think--different targets repsond differently to various approaches.  The veil is most commonly depicted in Bi-color (No SII) making Juan's palette impossible.  I do like bi color veil allot. 
Rodd

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #19 on: 2017 July 26 06:42:56 »
Quote
BTW, perhaps somewhat off-topic, is there some way to have color selections other than just RGB?

It is probably best to 'think backwards, starting from the point of view ( :P ) of the human eye. This is basically sensitive to three 'colours' - the Rd, Gn and Bu that are so familiar to us. So, in order to 'stimulate' the receptors in our eyes, we use the likes of a PC monitor to 'emit' those wavelengths of light, in variying intensities to each other, at different locations on the image. So, our monitors (nowadays) have three LEDs (one each of R, G and B) at every picture element (or, 'pixel'). In days of old, we didn't have these LEDs, so we used 'plasma' and even 'electro-luminescent phosphors' to achieve the same result. And, in fact, a printed picture behaves in very much the same way.

So, we need to have a means of recording or storing all of this colour data - and, in PixInsight (like other software) we do this by using three 'arrays of numbers'. These arrays don't store colour information at all (!!), rather, they store 'intensity' information, for each pixel in the X-Y array of pixels that represent our desired image. But - very importantly - the three individual arrays (or 'colour planes' as they are often known) are each assigned to one of the three primary colours: Rd, Gn and Bu.

So - in our colour images (FITS, XISF, TIFF, PNG, JPG, BMP, GIF, etc.) we can ONLY define intensities for these three primary colours (r, G and B) - nothing else. We cannot directly define Luminance information, nor can we define Narrow-Band data. Remember that critical point - we can ONLY define intensities of Red, Green and Blue.

But, that is not the end of the story - far from it, in fact!

It is entirely up to 'us' to decide what intensity level we want to store at any given pixel, and in any given primary colour channel. In the simplest of cases we often strive for a 'perfect RGB colour match' in our channels, such that the displayyed image is a 'true representation' of the colours we would perceive if we could look at the scene 'live' (and, commonly, the scene as it would appear if it was illuminated by 'white light', which is what we define or local star - Sol, the Sun - to emit).

But, this guy  :police: will not come and kick down your door if you chose to, for example, swap the Gn and Bu channels for some personal 'artistic effect'. You can do what you want, you can choose to emphasize one colour, or range of colours over others - you can even choose to 'de-saturate' your image completely, removing all colour leaving you with a simple monochrome, or Luminance, image.

Which finally brings us to the issue of NB imaging! It would be great is we had, say, another three channels of intensities in or (e.g.) FITS image - we could just dump in the H, S and O intensities and off we would go - BUT (and it is a massive BUT) whilst we can add as many channels as we want into a FITS file, we have no means of representing that intensity information on our three-channel monitors - which isn't really a problem given that our three-channel eyes wouldn't be able to decode that information anyway  :-\

Instead, what every image processor ('us', including those who might work in a chemical filled darkroom, or on other software packages aimed more for 'brightly-illuminated' image processing) must do is to take all of their source information (WB and NB, perhaps) and then to 'mix' this into the three available channels.

And, once again, 'how' this is achieved is not governed by any rules. Even 'guidelines' can be too strict a term. The 'mix' or 'blend' that a user finally chooses, will always be based on what 'they' feel they want to achieve. And, these desires can be defined by 'science' as well as 'art' - where certain areas of an image might be enhanced by using certain blending techniques (a 'scientific' approach) or where an overall image is besyowed with some 'aesthetic appeal' (an 'artistic' approach) to make the image 'look nice'.

So, until such time as Juan releases PixEyeball v1.0.1 (that uses bionic optical implants to link directly to PixInsight), we have to make the best of those three channels, and figure out our own methids for blending the data together.
« Last Edit: 2017 July 26 10:08:04 by Niall Saunders »
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline RickS

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #20 on: 2017 July 26 21:19:19 »
I did some experimenting with morphological transformation to reduce "prominence" of stars.  There is a difference, but the difference seems only slight to high minimal in magnitude.  I had to go to some extreme in getting this result, using "Morphological Selection" and 10 iterations with an "amount" of 1.0 and a "selection" factor of 0.1.  Just to see if the tool was doing anything at all I tried a selection factor of 1.0 and got great big bloated stars.

I suggested Erosion but Selection should work if you pick a Selection value < 0.5.  One or two iterations is usually enough to make a noticeable difference.  Check your mask looks OK (I can't see how you could get huge bloated stars if the mask is protecting everything except the stars - maybe it is inverted?)  Also check that the Structuring Element looks reasonable (e.g. try 5x5 circular.)

BTW, perhaps somewhat off-topic, is there some way to have color selections other than just RGB?  I'm not smart enough to really understand color and color possibilities, but I often find myself wishing I had more selection choice than just RGB.  Maybe it's a programming/digital nightmare.

RGB makes a lot of sense, especially if you're imaging with RGB filters.  There are alternatives, like the subtractive primaries cyan/magenta/yellow, CIELAB a* and b*, etc. but I don't think you'd find any of them easier to work with  ;)

I'm working on an image of the Eastern Veil at present.  I started with a HOO bi-colour and then used Sii as a mask to tweak and add some variation to the colours.  I'm fairly happy with the colour scheme both looking good and also representing the data in a meaningful way.  I'd be happy to share a preview if you're interested.

Cheers,
Rick.

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #21 on: 2017 July 27 06:50:18 »
I'm working on an image of the Eastern Veil at present.  I started with a HOO bi-colour and then used Sii as a mask to tweak and add some variation to the colours.  I'm fairly happy with the colour scheme both looking good and also representing the data in a meaningful way.  I'd be happy to share a preview if you're interested.

I'm working on the Eastern Veil also. To coin a phrase: "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours." Actually, I'll show you mine whether or not you show me yours. Except, mine's not a "preview."
I've taken it about as far as I know how at this point.  I'm guessing the issues in this image are very similar to what I have exhibited in the Western Veil.

I'm not sure what you mean that you "used Sii as a mask to tweak and add some variation to the colours."
« Last Edit: 2017 July 27 07:05:40 by rodmichael »
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #22 on: 2017 July 27 09:47:14 »
I have rendered this image in HOO (no SII filter).  I actually believe this may be my best post-processing to date.  I did some experimentation and eliminated Deconvolution and Multiscale Linear Transformation from linear processing.  I also eliminated MLT and MT from post processing.  In all cases with those processes in place I saw image degradation (fuzziness with MT and MLT and star halos [not exactly ringing] with Deconvolution).

In the case of the halos, they were not apparent after deconvolution but only after MLT following Deconvolution.  They were not black halos but rather more like mixed color to gray that when present would cause stars close to each other to have a combined halo and with several stars in close proximity would cause the image to appear to have holes in the background surrounded by groups of stars with combined halos, the "holes" having been denoised with TGVDenoise.  The holes was subtle when the photo was not zoomed upon, but became more and more apparent with higher levels of zoom.

Perhaps most of you have seen these phenomena before and can clue me in.

BTW, I'm not too sure I like the HOO palette as well as some of the other possibilities.  Not bad, but not my favorite.
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline RickS

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #23 on: 2017 July 27 15:48:43 »
Hi Rod,

Attached is a crop showing the first approximation of the colouring for my Eastern Veil.  You'll probably notice the general lack of stars :)  I remove the stars when I'm working on NB colour - this idea is borrowed from JP Metsavainio's tone mapping process.  I also create a synthetic luminance, which does include stars, which I combine with the starless colour later.

The colouring here is based on a HOO combine, Hue curve to push cyan towards blue, Sii mask with curves to boost green and reduce blue.  The Sii mask was created by stretching the Sii and then clipping the blacks (so the mask doesn't include the background.)

Your HOO combine looks good and represents the actual colours of the Veil fairly realistically.  I tend not to go for realistic so much with narrowband as you might have noticed.

Did you use a deringing mask with decon?  I normally apply decon only to the luminance.  I generally find that processing lum and colour separately keeps the amount of weird & unexpected stuff that happens to a minimum  :D

Cheers,
Rick.

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #24 on: 2017 July 27 16:11:06 »
Great Image.  I guess "gurus" can do those things.  I do appreciate the tips, though.  Gives me something to work on.  I haven't been doing anything with curves yet.  Coming up.

To answer your question:  For the HOO image of the Eastern Veil, I didn't use Deconvolution or MLT during linear processing.  And I didn't do MT or MLT in non-linear processing.

My workflow was as follows:
1. Dynamic crop
2. ABE of each channel
3. SHO-AIP multi-channel synthesis (HOO)
4. Fast rotation (horizontal flip)
5. Luminance channel extraction
6. HT of pseudo-luminance clone
7. Generate range mask from pseudo-luminance
8. Generate PSF image for Deconvolution
9. HT of combined chrominance image
10. TGVDenoise

I experimented with Deconvolution and MLT during linear processing and I experimented with MT and MLT during non-linear processing but I wasn't satisfied with the results, so, in the end, I left them out.

Attached is an image processed in (SH)(HO)O, said to be a preferred palette of Juan Conajero.
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #25 on: 2017 July 27 16:55:46 »
Rick,

I apologize for copying your image, but I cropped one of mine (in (HO(H))) similarly.  It looks like an owl, in case you hadn't noticed.  Head up, wings outstretched, feet trailing.  You can see the "ear" feathers and at least one eye.

I really like your image.  My colors aren't very owl-like, but I still like it.
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline RickS

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #26 on: 2017 July 27 17:27:19 »
Great Image.  I guess "gurus" can do those things.  I do appreciate the tips, though.  Gives me something to work on.  I haven't been doing anything with curves yet.  Coming up.

To answer your question:  For the HOO image of the Eastern Veil, I didn't use Deconvolution or MLT during linear processing.  And I didn't do MT or MLT in non-linear processing.

I experimented with Deconvolution and MLT during linear processing and I experimented with MT and MLT during non-linear processing but I wasn't satisfied with the results, so, in the end, I left them out.

Attached is an image processed in (SH)(HO)O, said to be a preferred palette of Juan Conajero.

Thanks, Rod.  CurvesTransformation is pretty useful so have a play with it when you get a chance.  The R, G & B curves are pretty obvious but also take a look at the Saturation and Hue curves.  CIELAB L*, a* and b* are useful but perhaps that's a more advanced topic for later.

You mentioned some artefacts in stars after decon.  That's probably fixable with a deringing mask.  Both MLT and Decon can work well but require careful, measured application.  Too much of either can get ugly.

The (SH)(HO)O palette image is nice but I don't know that a simple percentage combine will work equally well for all objects.  The variability in NB targets seems very large.  For me, at least, every one seems to need different treatment.

I apologize for copying your image, but I cropped one of mine (in (HO(H))) similarly.  It looks like an owl, in case you hadn't noticed.  Head up, wings outstretched, feet trailing.  You can see the "ear" feathers and at least one eye.

I really like your image.  My colors aren't very owl-like, but I still like it.

No problem at all, Rod!  This area is sometimes called the Bat or the Fangs.  It's certainly a very cool region of the Veil.

Offline rodmichael

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #27 on: 2017 July 27 18:18:31 »
I must say that the filamentary structure of your owl (bat) is much better defined and sharp.  Is yours a cropped image or a whole frame?  I'm thinking it must be a cropped image, which makes its sharpness all the more remarkable.  I'll have to improve my focus!!

I feel pretty happy though.  This is my first attempt at AP and PI processing (2nd image, 1st was of the Western Veil).  While I'm waiting to get things up and operational again, I'm going to go back and work on the Western Veil image again.
ASTROGRAPH: Celestron RASA, 11" f=2.22
MOUNT:  SB Paramount MX+
IMAGING CAMERA:  QSI 683WS
FILTERS: Astrodon SHO 5nm and Gen2 LRGB
GUIDING: The SkyX TPoint Supermodel and ProTrack
SOFTWARE:  SkyX Pro, PixInsight

Offline RickS

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #28 on: 2017 July 27 20:20:20 »
Yes, it's a crop, Rod.  The complete FOV is roughly the same width as yours, but square.

I think you're doing very well for a new imager!

Cheers,
Rick.

Offline chris.bailey

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Re: NGC 6960 - The Finger of God
« Reply #29 on: 2017 July 28 00:02:17 »
I'm pretty  sure I have done the rest of it but can only find the mosaic in Ha at the moment

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisjbaileyuk/11887299705/in/album-72157639685882563/

Chris

ps found it

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisjbaileyuk/21487469275/in/datetaken/