Author Topic: newbie question...Stray light?  (Read 3019 times)

Offline Rmoore7167

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newbie question...Stray light?
« on: 2017 May 28 09:16:13 »
HI...Im just getting going here and vetting out my system.  I just want to understand what Im looking at.  I have a one shot color Sbig ST-200xcm camera.  Picture was taken in Portland area    360 seconds, 2x2 binning, auto dark.  Questions;
- After picture taken is using the screen transfer the best way to get a rough idea what the picture would look like preprocessed?(I know there is a lot of other steps and I haven't even added darks, bias etc)
-IF so, what am i looking at?  is this stray light?  I have no filter at this time

What is best solution?  I just want to make sure that its me and not the camera :tongue: 

I apologize for such a basic question but before I start building a library of pictures and time want to make sure at least its not camera and something else.  Thanks   Richard

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: newbie question...Stray light?
« Reply #1 on: 2017 May 28 13:30:32 »
Hi Richard,

Welcome to the Forum, and to PixInsight!

So, your image was a six-minute exposure from an OSC astro-imaging camera. That is a reasonable start. However, I would not drop down to 2x2 binning if I am only going to use an OSC camera - doing so will cause the corruption of the clour filter array (the CFA) which must remain 'intact' if you are hoping to extract the colour data from the RAW image. I would also not be using any sort of 'Auto-Dark' or 'Auto-Bias' correction (not even for a single test frame like this), your image may well look far better without the Auto-Dark having been applied.

Maybe you could describe the acquisition process and software that you are using - guidance from other users with similar setups might be very beneficial to you at this early stage.

That said, trying to 'look past' the artefacts that have probably been caused by the method(s) you used to acquire the image, it would seem that your basic raw data might actually be OK.

Perhaps your first task should be to acquire statistically sound sets of Bias and Dark Frames - aim for a collection of thirty or so of each. You don't need to be connected to your telescope to do this, and it doesn't have to be 'dark'. In fact, you can even obtain these frames indoors - you just need to have a method for totally blocking all light from entering the imager during the data collection.

Don't trouble yourself with Flat Frames either - not just yet. OK, you might not end up with an APOD-quality image, but that shouldn't worry you for about 10 to 20 years  ;)

I don't think you have 'stray light' issues either - but it's too early to tell. I also don't know what filter you are planning to acquire but, with an OSC, you really don't need any filters (even a Light-Pollution filter may well be overkill). I image within a city boundary, and I regularly image towards the east which means I am imaging over the entire light-dome of the city. Providing the sky is clear enough (and, because here in the UK there are only about 23 people who can afford to drive a gas-guzzling American V8, that means we get these often enough for my neighbour and I to justify having an observatory) you just shouldn't need any filters.

So, right now, it is probably 'you' - which is exactly to be expected  :) Given time, and plenty of practice, you are in the best place to be helped up the realitively steep learning curve that is 'astro-imaging'. And, without wanting to sound like a 'fan-boy', at least with PixInsight in your arsenal at this early stage, you won't face all the trials and tribulations of trying to use 'general' image reprocessing software packages (which may do an excellent job in the 'general' field, but which have simply never been designed, from the outset, to specifically tackle the issues that astro-imagers face with every set of data that they acquire).

So, have another go - and carefully document the stages that you use to acquire the image. With more information, we can hopefully give you more specific assistance and guidance.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline Duncan

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Re: newbie question...Stray light?
« Reply #2 on: 2017 May 28 14:45:25 »
Picture was taken in Portland area

Which Portland?  :) And where more specifically? What shows up in the image looks very much like a light pollution gradient to me, and not at all surprising if you're imaging near a major urban area.

Duncan

Offline Rmoore7167

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Re: newbie question...Stray light?
« Reply #3 on: 2017 May 28 18:41:04 »
wow! Thanks for the replies!.   So Ill do the easier questions first.

Duncan
I live in Portland, Oregon.  More specifically West Linn...about 10 miles south of down town (45deg 23'17"N,  122deg 38'44"W)

Niall
- A few questions on your post
-when you say drop you mean 3x3 to 2x2 correct?
- Will try without auto dark next time
-Not sure what you mean by acquisition process but will take a stab at what I think you mean
    - Start by using FocusBoss once done I turn off
    - acquire object
    - ST 2000xcm
      - Cooling set to -5deg C
      - Exposure 360 secs
      - Delay 1 sec
      - Binning 2x2 (will change to 3x3)
      - Frame- Light
      - Reduction  AutoDark
      - subframe is off
      - Automatically save photos- Yes
Software
     -  This is where Im sure Im messed up....Keep in mind for this I have NOT applied any darks, bias etc... and maybe thats real issue but thought I could see kind off what it would look out without...again maybe what I have is normal..
    - But I open and select item
    -  then go to screen transfer function
    -  Ive tried auto stretch and new instance and thats when i got solution as attached

NOW that being said I have applied bias and darks as well with other pics and do see the same thing  but certainly not as bad.  Ive watched several videos on line and do subscribe to IP4ap.   I really guess what I am concerned about or at least want to avoid and thats taking hours of pictures and find out that I have some basic issue that makes all that time wasted.  So if its Stray light or something else great, I can fix...  IF its just software processing then like you said just be patient and work through videos etc..

Wish there was just a click this button...then do this....etc.... ;D   Seems like most folks have B&W and color wheel....wonder if Id be better off with that.....

Hope that helps clarify




Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: newbie question...Stray light?
« Reply #4 on: 2017 May 29 04:53:37 »
Hi again Richard,

I suggest that you avoid all forms of binning - stick with 1x1 if you hope to be able to recover colour data from your images at a later stage (and, do not worry about not 'seeing' any colour data in the early stages of any post-processing - quite often the colour does not start to manifest itself until quite late on, once you have taken steps to eradicate noise, etc.)

By 'acquisition process' I was also curious to know what software you were using to actually acquire the images, and exactly how that software was being configured to acquire and save the images.

Basically, with a suite of tools such as PixInsight, you really do not want to compromise your workflow by performing any unrequired processing steps outside of PI - this includes steps like 'auto-darks', etc.

You are not doing anything 'wrong' by wanting to see what you are getting as RAW data. However, for the very small extra effort of acquiring, say, 3 Lights and 3 Darks, and then creating a MasterDark that can be used to process each of the three Lights (ready for alignment and stacking), you might get an image that will give you far more information than an equivalent image based on just a single exposure.

Further, these extra steps are those that you will eventually be using anyway, as your skill level and confidence increases. So, learning how to do this on just a small data set will prepare you for greater tasks in the future.

Using the STF is also fundamental to PixInsight. What you are seeing is probably what is to be expected - given that this first trial image did have an unquantifiable external process, or group of processes) applied to it outwith PI.

I don't know what the cooling specs are for your imager, but you say that you were running it at -5°C for the exposure that you posted. Well, given that you are probably passing through the warmest months of your imaging year at the moment, now is also the time to experiment with the TEC settings. I would have thought that you could conceivably push the cooling down quite a bit yet, before the capabilities of the TEC system become saturated. Typically, a really good, multi-stage TEC circuit can give you a drop in temperature of around -40°C from ambient - but only when running 'maxed out'. I run my camera, all year round, at -15°C, and my camera can give me that -40°C drop. That means I could still conceivably image at an ambient temperature of +25°C whilst maintaining that desired target temperature of -15°C. Of course, that would be quite an unlikely scenario, and I would never want to run my TEC system at 100% anyway. Instead, during the summer, I am more likely to image at ambient temperatures of +5°C, so a target TEC temperature of -15°C means I am only running the TEC system at 50%. Conversely, in winter, if the ambient temperature is already at, or below, -15°C, then I am snuggled up in bed with a hot-water bottle and a cup of hot cocoa :cheesy:

Finally, do not believe that "most folks have B&W and color wheel" or that you "wonder if Id be better off with that". I very much doubt that either statement is truly the case. And I certainly would not recommend this approach for novices. It takes (at least) three times the effort to acquire data for non-OSC imaging and, quite often, the sheer time needed to achieve this can be a limiting factor for beginners who want to see at least 'something' to justify their hard-earned cash investment. (I have a little-used mono imager + filter wheel sitting somewhere out in the observatory that I haven't used for years, and which I would be only too happy to sell to someone who is ready to make good use of it !!)

Again, I hope some of this helps.
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
Moonfish ED80 APO & Celestron Omni XLT 120
QHY10 CCD & QHY5L-II Colour
9mm TS-OAG and Meade DSI-IIC

Offline Duncan

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Re: newbie question...Stray light?
« Reply #5 on: 2017 May 29 10:38:49 »

Duncan
I live in Portland, Oregon.  More specifically West Linn...about 10 miles south of down town (45deg 23'17"N,  122deg 38'44"W)


Awesome :). I'm a few miles north of you in Beaverton.

The light pollution around here really is terrible, but in your case the worst of it is going to be to the North rather than to the South as in my case. You should expect to see some severe background glow and gradients when imaging from home. Luckily, there are some good dark sites not too far away.

In addition to everything that Niall said, it's probably worthwhile getting all of the kinks ironed out at home, but once you're comfortable with your setup and have a consistent set of procedures, think about travelling out to some dark sites.

Duncan

Offline Rmoore7167

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Re: newbie question...Stray light?
« Reply #6 on: 2017 May 29 10:48:11 »
Naill
Thanks again for your replies and assistance.   I use SkyX with my Paramount Myt.   I will use your suggestions and see how it works out. Like you said good practice.   now.....I just have to wait for another clear night!  LOL.....Built my shed in November and think it will rot before get to use again!  Love Portland but geeze not the best for clear nights!

thanks and will let you know how this all goes!!

Cheers

Offline Rmoore7167

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Re: newbie question...Stray light?
« Reply #7 on: 2017 May 29 10:52:05 »
Duncan
another Portlander!   Wow...tough year to learn with all the rain this year....Yes once we get some clear skies again I will utilize Naills suggestions.  I am going to star party in Northern California end of June so like to get bugs kind of worked out....Im sure folks down there can assist a bit..

Thanks for your feedback!