Author Topic: DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly  (Read 6649 times)

Offline Nocturnal

  • PixInsight Jedi Council Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2727
    • http://www.carpephoton.com
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« on: 2009 February 03 19:09:19 »
Hi,

for some time now I've noticed that when I use DBE I can't reliably use the next and previous sample buttons to move back and forth. It'll happily skip from sample 1 to sample 70 and not even consistently. The next time it'll go 1-2-3-50 or some other sequence. I've noticed that my background model is much improved if I move each sample so it does not include any stars or other structures so I need to check each one. This is now a rather tedious operation. Could you see if you can reproduce this please?
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline Juan Conejero

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Jedi Grand Master
  • ********
  • Posts: 7111
    • http://pixinsight.com/
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« Reply #1 on: 2009 February 04 00:11:38 »
Hi Sander,

I've just checked this and I'm unable to reproduce this problem; sample navigation works well here.

Could you please send me a .psm file with a problematic DBE instance?

Quote
I've noticed that my background model is much improved if I move each sample so it does not include any stars or other structures so I need to check each one.


This shouldn't happen. DBE's pixel rejection should be able to reject pixels from stars and other small and bright image features. If stars are altering your model, the most probable cause is that your samples are too small.

Pixel rejection isn't perfect. Some pixels from a star (especially peripheral star pixels) can remain unrejected. For this reason, if a sample includes a bright star and is small compared to the star's size, the importance (in the statistical sense) of a few star pixels can be relatively large and alter the sample value significantly.

This normally happens more for small stars. Very large stars are totally rejected, so the automatic sample generator doesn't create samples over them.

You can watch the sample graphic over DBE's interface to know what is being rejected. Black pixels are being completely rejected. For example, if a pixel is red on the graphic, it is being rejected in the green and blue channels, but accepted in the red channel.

Of course, there are cases where a sample is incorrectly including too bright and too large objects. Usually this happens when the user creates samples manually. In these cases, those samples must be edited (moved/deleted/resized).
Juan Conejero
PixInsight Development Team
http://pixinsight.com/

Offline Nocturnal

  • PixInsight Jedi Council Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2727
    • http://www.carpephoton.com
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« Reply #2 on: 2009 February 04 06:29:26 »
Hi Juan,

I guess I have to record a video to show that it's happening. I do have a PSM, I'll email it to you shortly. Just click on an arbitrary sample, move it a bit and then go next a few times. No way you'll move all the way from sample 5 to sample 70 without skipping :)

I didn't realize the black pixels meant they are rejected. Where could I have read this?
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline Harry page

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Jedi Knight
  • *****
  • Posts: 1458
    • http://www.harrysastroshed.com
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« Reply #3 on: 2009 February 04 11:28:20 »
Hi Juan

I have to agree with sander on this I also get the random jumping of the samples with the next Icon,
but I am afraid I could not see a pattern to it!
Slightly annoying but not crucial

Regards Harry
Harry Page

Offline David Serrano

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« Reply #4 on: 2009 February 04 11:30:50 »
Just for the record, I've reported a similar (identical?) bug one and a half year ago (in spanish only). I guess users don't use those buttons too much! xD
--
 David Serrano

Offline Nocturnal

  • PixInsight Jedi Council Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2727
    • http://www.carpephoton.com
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« Reply #5 on: 2009 February 04 16:03:25 »
Hi,

I sent Juan a video demonstrating the problem.
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline georg.viehoever

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Jedi Master
  • ******
  • Posts: 2132
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« Reply #6 on: 2009 February 05 12:18:42 »
I have seen the jumping of points when I navigate forth and back through the list. It usually happens after adjusting the position of one point manually. Its there since a couple of releases.

The reason for adjusting the points is to move them away from stars. So also with this respect, saw what Sander saw

Georg
Georg (6 inch Newton, unmodified Canon EOS40D+80D, unguided EQ5 mount)

Offline Nocturnal

  • PixInsight Jedi Council Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2727
    • http://www.carpephoton.com
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« Reply #7 on: 2009 February 05 17:37:13 »
Thanks for everyone's replies. I just did a little experiment and created two DBE backgrounds. One was adjusted by me by moving samples away from stars and the occasional galaxy. The other used the default placement but same sample size. I then subtracted the two backgrounds from each other. The result showed there is substantial difference between the two images. Note that this is a markarian chain image so there is lots of background space, relatively few stars and no nebulosity.

I think that manually re-positioning the DBE samples is a good idea. I also compared the effect of subtracting the two different backgrounds from the target image. The result with the slightly customized background was better.
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline David Serrano

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« Reply #8 on: 2009 February 06 04:39:22 »
Quote from: "Nocturnal"
I then subtracted the two backgrounds from each other. The result showed there is substantial difference between the two images.


Hope you didn't rescale the result of the difference to the normalized range [0, 1]. It happened to me in the past... ;)
--
 David Serrano

Offline Nocturnal

  • PixInsight Jedi Council Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2727
    • http://www.carpephoton.com
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« Reply #9 on: 2009 February 06 05:35:35 »
In this case I did and did so on purpose because it has the effect of a nice linear stretch which shows detail. The differences between the two backgrounds wasn't *that* severe after all :)
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity

Offline David Serrano

  • PTeam Member
  • PixInsight Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« Reply #10 on: 2009 February 06 09:16:29 »
Which brings us to a nice improvement of PixelMath: show on the console the range of the image before stretching. So if you saw "Stretching [ 0, 0.3 ] to [ 0, 1 ]" you would know that the brightest pixels in the resulting image had an intensity of 0.3, which in this particular case would mean a remarkable difference in sky backgrounds.
--
 David Serrano

Offline Nocturnal

  • PixInsight Jedi Council Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2727
    • http://www.carpephoton.com
DBE: moving to next/previous sample doesn't work properly
« Reply #11 on: 2009 February 06 10:14:05 »
That is indeed a great idea!
Best,

    Sander
---
Edge HD 1100
QHY-8 for imaging, IMG0H mono for guiding, video cameras for occulations
ASI224, QHY5L-IIc
HyperStar3
WO-M110ED+FR-III/TRF-2008
Takahashi EM-400
PIxInsight, DeepSkyStacker, PHD, Nebulosity