Author Topic: The Need for Bias and Dark frames?  (Read 5974 times)

Offline mads0100

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The Need for Bias and Dark frames?
« on: 2014 May 30 08:50:40 »
There is an interesting discussion over at the Beginning/Intermediate Imaging Forums on CN with regards to the need to use Bias and Dark frames.  I was wondering what the 'professional' take is on it and what you think of the poster's results?  Is there any validity to his claims? 

Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

Thread:
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6552583/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

Chris

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: The Need for Bias and Dark frames?
« Reply #1 on: 2014 May 30 10:32:55 »
I often wonder: why people try to skip taking the calibration frames? It is not so hard, and the number 1 rule that we have to always remember is: better captured data makes a much easier image processing. In that sense, calibrating, dithering, etc adds another steps forwards a better "raw data".
In my imaging works, I prefer to be a bit paranoid, and "over-do" the calibration. Maybe I need fewer bias frames or flats... or not having darks for so many exposure times (when I perform HDR shots)... but I prefer to "waste" a few seconds/minutes at a proper acquisition, to waste them trying to solve integration/noise reduction issues.
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Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: The Need for Bias and Dark frames?
« Reply #2 on: 2014 May 30 11:12:31 »
Having said that, the structure of calibration steps has being modeled following the behaviour of ccd data, to address some unwanted signals or data corrections. And this is very much related to the imaging model.
Photons are capturated in each pixel cell, that is physically a semiconductor. This semiconductor is built from 2 different materials, one dopped with electrons, and the other with the lack of them. Also, there are other materials that create the barriers that define the cells, charge drainage, etc. They are not perfect, and have variations. Both these variations generates (among others) two effects: pixels have different sensibility, and also the thermodinamic propperties vary along them (so, the dark current is pixel-dependant).
After the adquisition, we have a well full (depending on the signal intensity) of electrons that were generated both by hits by photons and by spontaneous jumps created by heat (and they are indistinguishable). This charge needs to be moved to a analog to digital conversor. In CCD cameras, this is done by moving the charges from one pixel to another, usually along columns (where the potential barriers are weaker and controllable), and then are conducted sequentially to one or more amplifiers. This electron movement may also generate some voltage differences, consistent along columns. And, the amplifiers also generates some random measurements, that are translated into a readout error. Furthermore, the lecture process of the voltage/signal is done in such way that references voltages are needed, so a pedestal value is incorporated.

At the end, we have a measured signal that is in reality a mix of electrons generated by photons, and by a lot of other sources. Without loss of generality, we may model this as: z = K*x+y
where, we may identify (at least) two different sources that are affected by those multiplicative effects (pixel by pixel dependant). An so we have: z = K1*p + K2*t + r
where p stands for the photon induced electrons, t for the thermally generated ones, and r by all the readout processes.
Fortunatelly, we may control these processes. If we take a short enough exposure, without light hitting the sensor, we may measure the readout signals (bias frames). If we take long exposures, we may measure both the readout and thermal signals (dark frames).
What we have left here is only the photonic source (plus noise, of course).
Only is left to model the pixel differencies in sensibility. This is both a mixture of the intrinsic variations in the semiconductor/materials/etc., and also reflects uneven illumination of the sensor by the optical design, elements in the path (like dust), etc. So, what we do? Exposure a surface that we know should be homogeneus. The captured data (the flat frame), after all the previous corrections, should reflect the multiplicative effects. Please note that we need to remove all additive sources from the flat to make it a reliable model of the multiplicative effects. We need, at least, to use the bias frames to remove the pedestal. Otherwise, the math just don't hold.
Still, we may get good visual results if we skip some steps... if the pedestal is low enough, perhaps the flat is good enough. If cooled, thermal signal may be ignored, thus dark frames are no longer needed... But they do help.

BTW, things on CMOS chips are slightly different, specially because they do not follow as linear behaviors as CCDs, so this procedure is only an approximation. Anyway, if all the calibration frames are taken in conditions as close as possible to the conditions the light frames were exposed, and in-chip processes are not signal dependant (raw data is raw data, and not processed, either digitally or analog), we should get pretty consistent results.

If we add dithering to this, and taking a lot of frames, we are also making the statistics to play nicer with us, to reduce noise. If no dithering is used, the noise is highly correlated, specially by thermal/readout sources. Also, errors in the previous steps have a larger impact on the result. Dithering uncorrelates the noise sources, improving the chance that we arrive to the true signal at the end.
We may rely on this to skip some calibration steps (darks, specially)... if the number of acquisitions is large enough. But I would play it safe.
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline jkmorse

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Re: The Need for Bias and Dark frames?
« Reply #3 on: 2014 May 30 11:16:20 »
Chris,

I think it makes a huge difference on whether you are talking about shooting with a non-cooled DSLR and shooting with a cooled CCD.  What I found when I first started out was that given temperature changes between lights and darks, even when shooting the darks during the course of the night, always added artifacts to the images.  But when moving to a cooled CCD where you can regulate the temp within 0.1C, the darks improve images.  That said, I have stopped using darks to calibrate my flats and instead do that with a really clean bias master (made of hundreds of subframes) because sometimes the darks frames will cause issues with the flats. 

But overall, if using a cooled CCD I am definitely in agreement with Carlos that you want to use well made master darks to squeeze all the potential out of your raw data that is possible.

Best,

Jim
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Offline JoLo

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Re: The Need for Bias and Dark frames?
« Reply #4 on: 2014 May 30 12:51:59 »
Taking darks, flats and bias frames have become such a part of my routine that i don't even think about it anymore.  I do most of my imaging from home and use 5 min acquisitions, so i can usually have all my calibration frames completed during set up and tear down, so it really does not extend my time or make it a hassle.  I always collect 15 of each (unless I am at my dark site and doing 10 minute subs); Burnell taught me in one of his books that anything over 12-15 is a waste of time, as the beneficial return drops rapidly after this point.

I have only had my CCD since February (Atik 314) but had been doing DSLR imaging for about three years before that.  Obviously, the benefit of calibration frames with a DSLR are readily apparent; more subtle i have noticed with my CCD, but still there.....I often compare single image, single image calibrated and stacked images to remind me how effective the reduction can be.  I definitely notice it when processing....the properly acquired and reduced image can handle more processing - stretching, saturation, whatever - with a minimum of artifacts, if done properly.  My $0.02.
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Offline pfile

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Re: The Need for Bias and Dark frames?
« Reply #5 on: 2014 May 30 14:42:04 »
yes i think the discussion over there centers on DSLRs and uncooled DSLRs. recently there were a number of posts here talking about how to prepare calibration masters for a DSLR and how the normal CCD way of doing things may not work because of the tricks canon is pulling behind the scenes. don't know if nikon is similar or not…

rob

Offline mschuster

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Re: The Need for Bias and Dark frames?
« Reply #6 on: 2014 May 30 16:31:37 »
It seems to me that dithering with lots of subs and good rejection is a fine way to remove local pixel sensitivity variations. This makes darks and flats less needed, at least locally. However larger spatial variations are not going to be dithered away, things like amp and edge glows, dust donuts, and vignetting. Glows and vignetting can sometimes be modeled out with DBE, but I've given up with that on full-frame nebula because there is no good background to be used. And without flats the donuts are a bit annoying. So I end up dithering and fully calibrating. A 128 frame 40 minute dark master? Takes a while to make but works good.
Mike

Offline mads0100

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Re: The Need for Bias and Dark frames?
« Reply #7 on: 2014 May 30 16:57:17 »
The OP of the thread is a cooled CCD guy; I believe he's using a STF8300 or similar camera.  While it might have digressed to DSLRs and uncooled CCDs, the intent was more for us.

As it is, I agree with Carlos and the rest of you :).  It doesn't inconvenience me a bit to shoot a few darks/flats/bias frames. There is plenty of Cloudy Nights (pun intended) where I can put my camera to work taking darks and bias frames.  Flats are really unavoidable.

Carlos, thank you for your detailed description!

Mshuster, so are you saying that potentially with the newer cameras there is less of a need for it because they're built better? For instance amp glow used to be an issue but now-a-days with your average STF or QSI you're not going to have a problem with it... Have the manufacturers mitigated some of the glaring needs for this type of error correction? 

Thank you all for your additions!

Offline mschuster

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Re: The Need for Bias and Dark frames?
« Reply #8 on: 2014 May 30 18:04:28 »
Mads0100, stretching a master bias or dark will show edge non-uniformity, if any. It does show up a bit on my QSI, don't know about other cameras. It calibrates out well of course, if you calibrate, but it won't dither away on my QSI, it is too big. If you don't calibrate and it is annoying, you can crop it. Whatever works.
Mike

Offline pfile

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Re: The Need for Bias and Dark frames?
« Reply #9 on: 2014 May 30 22:37:26 »
i've seen at least one QSI camera that exhibits some "waviness" in the bias signal at a large scale. i'm not sure how well this would 'stack out' with typical dithering. the pattern is completely removed by calibration.

some sony sensors have really low dark current and i've heard that some users of those chips don't bother with darks.

rob

Offline mads0100

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Re: The Need for Bias and Dark frames?
« Reply #10 on: 2014 May 31 06:25:28 »
Rob/M,

   Thank you!

Chris