Author Topic: Bounds of processing?  (Read 6043 times)

Offline budguinn

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Bounds of processing?
« on: 2010 May 05 17:29:16 »
Hi all,

Niall, in answer to a question of mine, was good enough to give me a link to the founding statement of the DSA
http://astro-photographer.org/dsa/statement.html

In reading this, and in the discussion on the use, or non-use, of differing making styles it has caused me to think of a few things.

The first would be....
In deconvolving an image, how far can I go before it starts to become "non-documentary" because of the changing of information?

As an example:  I want to bring out the detail in the arms of a galaxy...say M31.
At what point are to many iterations crossing the line.....or perhaps the combination of a deconvolve, HDR and a DSE?  Each and every process has changed information.  The ultimate purpose being to overcome my horrible seeing and the limitations of my equipment.  My usual method is to do it until pleasing to the eye.  This appears to be very unscientific, but does meet one of the rules of the DSA....specifically to "Produce emotions in the spectator."
While this may have met this specific rule, but at what point does it step over the line?

thanks for any help,

bud

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #1 on: 2010 May 05 20:57:11 »
One way is to see other images of the same area, but better resolution, and compare your result. If you generated structures that are not in the other image, you know for sure that you went too far with deconv. your data. The problem is when you are at the very edge of deepness or resolution :D
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Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline budguinn

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #2 on: 2010 May 05 21:43:46 »
Hi Carlos,

That is what I do at this time.  But, I was wondering how to do this while simply conforming to a purely mathematical interpretation of the information.  Because if I'm looking at another image then I'm kind of guessing on whether I've went far enough...or to far.  And what if a high resolution image of this object isn't available?

My concern was how to remain faithful to the DSA without using an auxillary image....because at some point it seems that a certain amount of arbitrariness is going to enter the picture.....
If the picture that I'm using as a "norm" has been inadequately processed....ie not conforming with the DSA....then I'm going to be led astray.  The "norm" and how they adapted "the data to the characteristics of the human vision system" will in someway affect the way I modify my picture.

now, back to the tutorials,

bud

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #3 on: 2010 May 05 23:58:30 »
Hi Bud,

If this was me looking at the digital development of one of my images, then the 'too far' decision IS still an 'artistic' or 'aesthetic' decision. It always has to be in the end.

The crucial thing is to 'stay faithful to the data' - and that premise does NOT, in fact, preclude the use of 'painted masks' (or, indeed, the CloneStamp tool) - but only if the use of such a process doesn't bring something to the image that wasn't there in the first place.

And this would apply irrespective of whether a different image shows that judicious 'airbrushing' would improve the image that I was working on - at what point do I stop trying to improve my image and, instead, start to airbrush in the 'better' parts of the other image.

In an ideal world - once Juan has sorted out his current ramshackle code ::) ::) ::) - we will all be able to point our scopes at our desired targets, 'release the shutter', and wait for PI to output an image from our printer. Just like a cheap Polaroid. And this will be possible because there would exist a totally adaptive series of algorithms within PI that knew EXACTLY how to 'process' the raw data, without further intervention from us.

OK, so obviously this 'could' be possible - but it is not what 'we' are actually looking for, instead 'we' are still at the level of apprentice sorcerer's, constantly being provided with new spells by our Grand Wizard, all of which need to be learned, and not all of which we need to use, and some of which we could use - but would risk the loss of our eyebrows if we tried >:D

'Too far' is when you have to colour in your missing eyebrows with eye makeup !!

Cheers,
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

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Offline Juan Conejero

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #4 on: 2010 May 06 02:35:40 »
Hi Bud,

There are no rules written on stone. It is your accumulated experience, your taste and your common sense what tell you when you're crossing the line —which is always somewhat thick and diffuse.

In general, it is much easier than it may seem at first. Looking at your website —which is very nice, by the way—, you undoubtedly are doing it very well right now, so I think you don't need to concern yourself too much as to where the bounds of processing are: you already know them.

Quote
In deconvolving an image, how far can I go before it starts to become "non-documentary" because of the changing of information?

In general, the decision to stop deconvolving an image isn't difficult. On one hand, regularized algorithms are globally convergent, so it is more a matter of using good PSF and regularization (noise reduction) parameters than of limiting the number of iterations. On the other hand, usually the artifacts generated by a wrong deconvolution are so conspicuous that there's no doubt at all.

I wrote a tutorial years ago about deconvolution of a lunar image:

http://pixinsight.com/examples/deconvolution/moon/en.html

In this case we had no direct PSF measurements over the image, so we had to find good parameters by trial-error. If you look at figures 3 and 4 you'll see that selecting good PSF parameters is actually quite easy. See for example on figures 4c and 4d that a slightly wrong PSF shape causes an immediate disaster. Figure 8 shows a more tough decision. In this case I decided that figure 8b is showing artifacts due to sharpening of marginal data, based on the fact that the smallest structures shown are too small considering the instrumental and environmental conditions.

With deep-sky images these things are more complicated, because the SNR is usually much poorer, so there is much more uncertainty. If you have measured or can measure the standard deviation of the PSF by analyzing stars on the image, always use that. Unfortunately, we still lack a PSF modeling tool in PixInsight, but this will change soon. Anyway you can easily guess a pretty good PSF by looking at the smallest stars on your image.

A more tough decision is whether to deconvolve or not. IMO, in most cases deconvolution is wrongly used. On one hand deconvolution does not make any sense but for linear images. On the other hand, deconvolution requires very high SNR. There are alternatives that can be as efficient as deconvolution, much faster, and can tolerate higher amounts of noise, such as wavelets.

Quote
My usual method is to do it until pleasing to the eye.  This appears to be very unscientific, but does meet one of the rules of the DSA....specifically to "Produce emotions in the spectator."

This is the artistic part of astrophotography, and it is an essential part. If you were to do science, in the sense of measuring brightness photometrically for example, you couldn't apply fancy stuff such as most PI tools. In fact, you couldn't apply any nonlinear processing to the image. However, science, art and astrophotography are much more and mean much more than that, fortunately.

The main goals of astrophotography, as I understand it, are described on the DSA founding statement document. The goal of serving as a vehicle for divulgation of science and culture is, in my opinion, the most important one. In this sense, one must try to maximize the amount of information transported by the final work. The problem is how to maximize information representation without starting to produce false information from marginal data. Having the knowledge and experience to be able to stop before crossing this barrier is the responsibility of a good astrophotographer.

Quote
And what if a high resolution image of this object isn't available?

When this happens then you've got good news and bad news. The good news is that you're pushing your own limits, which is always exciting and forces you to grow. The bad news is that you're alone ;D
Juan Conejero
PixInsight Development Team
http://pixinsight.com/

Offline budguinn

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #5 on: 2010 May 06 05:46:42 »
Thanks guys, and Juan for the considered response.
I've read through the DSA a half dozen times now and found no problem with it at all.
I believe that I'm trying to conform with it.

I would be horribly embarrassed if someone took one of my images....registered it with another image and found that I had "added" stuff.  (now star spikes are a whole 'nother argument that we don't need to get into  :-[)

best regards,

bud


Offline Philip de Louraille

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #6 on: 2010 May 06 07:07:24 »
With respect to bringing details where none are, there is this M72 picture that made the APOD on March 2 of this year and when I first saw it I thought too much processing had been applied. To me - personally - there are details in the gas that seem to defy the resolution of the telescope (especially an Earth-based one.) It is too much deconvolution or wavelet over processing I can't tell but since some of you have a lot more experience than I in this field, I'd love to have input here - not to criticize the photo representation (of course) but whether it is an example of going over the top with an algorithm.
Philip de Louraille

Offline budguinn

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #7 on: 2010 May 06 07:26:56 »
With respect to bringing details where none are, there is this M72 picture that made the APOD on March 2 of this year and when I first saw it I thought too much processing had been applied. To me - personally - there are details in the gas that seem to defy the resolution of the telescope (especially an Earth-based one.) It is too much deconvolution or wavelet over processing I can't tell but since some of you have a lot more experience than I in this field, I'd love to have input here - not to criticize the photo representation (of course) but whether it is an example of going over the top with an algorithm.


Hi Phillipe,

I think you meant M78 and not M72......url link:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap100302.html

It's hard to say....it does look a bit sharper or higher resolution than we might be used to.

I did this one with my Tak E180ED and SXV-M25C one-shot-camera......which is a pretty widefield setup and not a high resolution deal at all.
http://www.budguinn.com/gallery22/v/messier/M78-LRGB-frame.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=5
I think I did this three or four years ago.  It has pretty good detail, and this was with very few processing tools available to me at that time....ie HDR/Wavelets.  I think I could go back and reprocess this with PI and pull out some more information.  (which might be a good exercise while under these clouds).

I now have an FRC300 that I'd love to point at this area and see what kind of resolution I could get.
I'd think if the APOD picture was taken with a good longer FL scope and good camera and, most importantly, good seeing he might get the data to do this.

But, more to the point, this is the exact question that I had in mind, in my original post.  With the new processing tools....if the S/N is good.....a considerable amount of deconvolution/HDR Wavelet/or wavelet sharpening can be done......but, how far do we go?

I think Juan's reply gave some very good bounds/limits ..... and it does boil down to personal interpretation....

and of course and commitment to the DSA!!!! ;)

bud

Offline Philip de Louraille

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #8 on: 2010 May 06 08:16:46 »
Yes you are right, I meant M78.
What I found amazing in the APOD picture was the "crinkled" effects shown in the gas. That is what I meant by "defying the telescope resolution" (to me.) I have yet to see a Hubble picture showing that much detail.
I'm glad you brought the question because I've had it in my mind before.
Astrophotographic processing is an art within a science but beware of witchery!
Philip de Louraille

Offline budguinn

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #9 on: 2010 May 06 08:31:45 »
Yes you are right, I meant M78.
What I found amazing in the APOD picture was the "crinkled" effects shown in the gas. That is what I meant by "defying the telescope resolution" (to me.) I have yet to see a Hubble picture showing that much detail.
I'm glad you brought the question because I've had it in my mind before.
Astrophotographic processing is an art within a science but beware of witchery!

I've often wondered at making these areas to sharp......how sharp can a cloud be?

bud



Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #10 on: 2010 May 06 09:55:35 »
Hi Bud

Remember that those clouds are very far awai, so even when there are no true sharp boundaries, it may be percibed as such from here. So, as long as the density of the cloud varies enough, you may have very sharp features.
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
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Offline budguinn

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #11 on: 2010 May 06 09:57:36 »
Hi Bud

Remember that those clouds are very far awai, so even when there are no true sharp boundaries, it may be percibed as such from here. So, as long as the density of the cloud varies enough, you may have very sharp features.

good point

Offline Silvercup

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #12 on: 2010 May 06 13:45:14 »
Hi:

It isn't witchery, just highly advanced algorithms. As stated on the website in "paltform features" are "state-of-the-art" algorithms. Deconvolution for example has nothing to do with a simple unsharp mask.

How much you have to deconvolute an image and where are the limits is a common sense cuestion. During the processing you will have to make subjective decisions, how many iterations do, noise reduction parameters, amount of applied wavelets ....

What is absolutely proven is that these algorithms do not "invent anything" if work are done properly and IMHO they are light years away from any other type of processing with other software packages.

I think Ignacio processed extremely well that image, nothing is invented, he has good sky and equip to reach that resolution. Neither, Bud's image is left behind, I think it deserves a re-treatment or a new session with the new scope.



Best, Silvercup.

Offline budguinn

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Re: Bounds of processing?
« Reply #13 on: 2010 May 06 17:33:17 »
Hi Silvercup,

That doesn't look to bad sitting next to the APOD image.
Did you do anything to it?......I guess that might be one of the first ones I actually try to process in PI.

best regards,

bud