Author Topic: A beginners first steps  (Read 5825 times)

Offline balt

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A beginners first steps
« on: 2009 September 11 13:05:03 »
Hi all,

I would be interested to know how others in this forum doing DSLR astrophotography are reducing their data.

Here's the (raw-ish) image I took a few days ago. The framing is not good, and it's not cropped to remove vignetting and other bad image areas (so please disregard that):


Here's what I've done to get this image:
Nikon D90 @ 800 ISO, crappy 25-105mm lens (horrible vignetting, difficult to focus), the Nikon Camera Control software (hence the limitation to 30 seconds per exposure) and 120 frames of 30 seconds each. 10 dark frames and 10 bias frames have also been produced. No flat.

Following suggestions in this forum, I used DeepSkyStacker to auto stack the final frame, including dark and bias frames subtraction and wrote it out as a 32bit FITS file. Then I took the image into PixInsight and did
- HistogramTransformation: Dragging the midtones to the first peak, leaving the Highlights and Shadows alone.
- DynamicBackgroundExtraction: selected several areas in the picture that seemed to mostly have sky noise, and subtracted that.
- Picture still seemed too green, so I used the ColorSaturation dialog to give the greens a downward kink.
- Tried a HDRWT, seemed to emphasize the dark structures by quite a bit, but didn't look real, so undid that.
- Resorted to a regularized R-L deconvolution with default settings to sharpen things up a bit.

Now, there's a whole heap of crimes I'm sure I have committed in this process. How do the pro's do it? I think one step I'm missing is the screen transfer function, I can't seem to find where that's done. Also, I would prefer to do dark and bias frame subtraction as well as image registration all in PixInsight, but with 120 frames that is a bit tedious as there seems to be no automated way?

Cheers

- Balt

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: A beginners first steps
« Reply #1 on: 2009 September 11 15:30:13 »
Hi Balt

First of all, wellcome to this world of the astrophotography, specially to this forum (and thanks for trying PixInsight) :)

A few tips/suggestions about your workflow:

Quote
- HistogramTransformation: Dragging the midtones to the first peak, leaving the Highlights and Shadows alone.

It is a good idea to set the white and black points of the image in your first HistogramTransform. I usually use the automatic crop, to a 0.01% of pixels, both sides, but you may just use AutoZero for the highlights to avoid losing significant data. About the midtones, there is no rule of thumb for it, like moving the slider to the peak. Use the RealTimePreview to see wich value likes you the most. I go for a background around 0.1, with the peaks aligned just a bit to the right. If you have not corrected the chip's response (i.e. white balance), then you must adjust each midtones value, for every channel, to get right the color balance. Of course, there is a new process that deals with this problem, but I haven't used it yet :P

Quote
- DynamicBackgroundExtraction: selected several areas in the picture that seemed to mostly have sky noise, and subtracted that.

Since you have not used flats, and if there are no significant sky gradients, you should perform a division instead of a substraction. This is done to your raw data, before the histogram adjustments. Otherwise, it is fine what you did, but working with linear data is a bit easier.

Quote
- Picture still seemed too green, so I used the ColorSaturation dialog to give the greens a downward kink.

The ColorSaturation process is not a good candidate for this task. A color cast indicates that the overall balance is wrong, so you need to correct it with the HistogramTransform, the Curves, the new process (can't remember the name...), or even PixelMath. Slight green hues, that appears even in a balanced image may be easily dealt with SCNR.

Quote
- Tried a HDRWT, seemed to emphasize the dark structures by quite a bit, but didn't look real, so undid that.

What is real? :D
Seriusly, we are too accustomed to what has been done early, and we think that this is normal. Take some risks, and see if your processing is giving the results you want or like, don't think about what others did. At the end, this is not science, it is a form of art. So, even when you keep truthfull to your data, do not cheat or make arbitrary things (like undiscriminate use of a cloning tool, manual selections/adjstments, etc) you still have a lot of liberty to do just what you want. Have fun, and get the nicest image you can :D

Quote
- Resorted to a regularized R-L deconvolution with default settings to sharpen things up a bit.

There is nothing wrong here, but I want to explain a little about the "philosophy" behind a deconvolution. Basically, it is a process that is intended to "reverse" the effect of something that blured your image, most likely the seeing, problems with optics, etc. So, what we want is to go back to a pure "original data", or reconstruct the image. For this reason, a deconvolution should be along the very first processes that are applied, when the data was still linear.
Of course that there is nothing wrong if you interpret a deconvolution just as a sharpen tool. I have used it for this very same reason even at later steps. But you have to be aware of what is happening to the image, so you may take some precautions, as protecting the stars with a luminance mask, etc. Also, if your goal is just a final "sharpening effect", you may consider other tools that are faster and have been specifically designed for this purpose: UnsharpMask, or even better, ATrousWavelets.

Quote
Now, there's a whole heap of crimes I'm sure I have committed in this process. How do the pro's do it? I think one step I'm missing is the screen transfer function, I can't seem to find where that's done. Also, I would prefer to do dark and bias frame subtraction as well as image registration all in PixInsight, but with 120 frames that is a bit tedious as there seems to be no automated way?

Not crimes :) Just there are better ways ;)
The STF is just an aid when you are working with linear data, to display it more conveniently on your screen. It makes no pixel adjustments at all, so don't get confused at this point. It is just a way to tell PixInsight how to draw the image, but without any real effect on the data, or how it will be written. When the STF is active, remember that this is not what others will see when they open your saved image. Once you have applied the first big midtones adjustment, discard the STF.
About automatic image registration, etc. It is in our plans. But cannot give any date of release :P For the moment, use DSS, wich is a very good software.

Now, about my workflow...wow, I do a lot of things :D But, you may divide all the processes into two sets: those wich work with linear data, and those who doesn't. The linear ones should be applied first, in any order, since the output will always be linear data too. Here may be deconvolution, color balance, background division or substraction, etc. When you are done, midtones balance, in any way (there are several methods). Then, my philosophy is "perform what the image says its needed". Just see it, and think what it needs to be better, and do that :) There are some tips, like is better to reduce noise before sharpening, but at the end is just a matter of tastes and what is easier for you.

Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
--------------------------------
PixInsight Project Developer
http://www.pixinsight.com

Offline balt

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Re: A beginners first steps
« Reply #2 on: 2009 September 11 16:08:02 »
Hi Carlos,

thanks for your detailed reply, it is very much appreciated! I will take your suggestions and re work the same data and see what I can come up with.

Cheers

- Balt

P.S. Are you close to releasing the 64bit OSX version? I have upgraded my mac today and the difference in performance is astounding.

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: A beginners first steps
« Reply #3 on: 2009 September 11 21:28:03 »
To be honest, I'm not up to date with the current development flow. I have been nearly a year away because of studies, so this is something that Juan should answer. I'm working right now on some new processing modules, mainly for non direct astronomical use (I do some external work for physics and engeneering), but with time may be included in new tools that take advantage of those codes. Also I want to release nearly a dozen processes that are in stand by, waiting for finalization :) I guess that this is what I can offer this year... and as always, all the work related with the PCL and the Core application are exclusively Juan's work (hats off ;) ).


A final recommendation about processing: practice, practice a lot :) This is just any sport or martial art. You have to give it time to improve. It is not that it is difficult, but with time you understand what you do, and why somethings work better than others. Also, you get the intuition to see where the "path" of processing is headed for a particular image, and you don't have to stay with a cooking recipe. Finally, you eyes will discriminate much better the differences between two images, or even the partial results of your process, and learn to be much more critical about them :P I guess this is the only downfall: you will not see the pictures simply as beautiful. :D
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
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PixInsight Project Developer
http://www.pixinsight.com

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: A beginners first steps
« Reply #4 on: 2009 September 12 12:56:21 »
Quote
About automatic image registration, etc. It is in our plans. But cannot give any date of release . For the moment, use DSS, wich is a very good software.

My mistake. There is a process called StarAlignment that is an automatic implementation of image registration. It should do what you want.

(Did I say that I'm a bit outdated?) :)
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
--------------------------------
PixInsight Project Developer
http://www.pixinsight.com

Offline balt

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Re: A beginners first steps
« Reply #5 on: 2009 September 12 15:27:19 »
Hi,

yes I've used that before, works great. The issue really revolves around dark and bias subtraction on hundreds of frames. There seems to be no easy way to do that. Maybe via scripting I could automate parts of it, I'll see if i can get my head around those.

Meanwhile I got my processing steps right, linear operations first, I also finally managed to get the STF working. Don't know why that was so hard to find!

Cheers

- Balt

Offline Carlos Milovic

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Re: A beginners first steps
« Reply #6 on: 2009 September 12 15:42:21 »
Well, in fact there is a way to apply the darks and bias to hundreds of frames, in an automatic way.  Take a look at the ImageContainer. Add all the files, stablish the output protocol, and then create the icon. Now, open the master bias and master dark (you may create them with ImageIntegration), and the PixelMath process. There, write: "$T-bias-dark"

(I assume that your master dark already has bias substraction and scaled, if needed... if the darks don't need rescalation, then you don't need bias at all, since you are not using flats)

Now, drop the PixelMath instance over the ImageContainer icon... and go for a cup of cofee while it makes all the work :)
Regards,

Carlos Milovic F.
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PixInsight Project Developer
http://www.pixinsight.com

Offline Niall Saunders

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Re: A beginners first steps
« Reply #7 on: 2009 September 14 03:31:09 »
Hi all,

Well, I hope to get some time to myself this week (and again in a few weeks time) to see if I can get my Image Reduction PJSR script off the ground (a week ensconsed in a hotel whilst on a business trip should help focus the mind !!)

hope this will help
Cheers,
Niall Saunders
Clinterty Observatories
Aberdeen, UK

Altair Astro GSO 10" f/8 Ritchey Chrétien CF OTA on EQ8 mount with homebrew 3D Balance and Pier
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