PixInsight Forum (historical)
PixInsight => Tutorials and Processing Examples => Topic started by: Sean on 2012 July 26 10:43:10
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Just got an announcement in the QSI newsgroup that Warren and RBA have teamed together to produce a commercial series of PI tutorials.
http://www.ip4ap.com/pixinsight.htm
From the initial announcement, it appears as if these tutorials will be really helpful to PI users. They aren't free, but seem reasonably priced to me, and Warren has a good track record with his tutorials.
I have no connection or commercial interest in them - just passing along the news.
Sean
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Yes, I signed up for the rolling release. Not too much new yet (though there are a couple of nice little reminders), but I look forward to seeing some excellent processing and the advanced topics done correctly.
The production value is very high, and yes, you get Warren's unique presentation style. :P
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I'm excited about this, too. I bought Warren's PS tutorials and thought he explained things very well. The combination of WK and RBA will be very interesting, and I think it will help people learn a lot about PI. This kind of thing is very good news for PI, I think, as it just adds to the amount of good instructional material out there.
(After all, the materials on astro-image-processing with PS weren't exactly written by the people at Adobe, to the best of my knowledge. This includes Warren's videos, Scott Ireland's book, and so on.)
- Marek
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I've joined in to. I also bought Warrens PS tutorials which were a super help in getting me up and running in the processing side. I was always able to go back to them for reference to. Look forward to the full set.
Tom.
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I'm new to PI and Warren is really good at explaining the concepts. This is a great learning tool. I look forward to each new issue. Clear skies, John
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Thanks very much guys for your votes of confidence. They are much appreciated. It almost makes the excrutiating production process worthwhile.:'( We're making good progress now, having finished both the primer and stacking segments, and having two done in the linear section. Working on background extraction now which is tough.
As we all know, there is a fair amount of good information out there. We're committed to culling from all of the best resources and by putting our own spin in the scripts, we are consolidating them into what I feel is the most concise presentation, with the convenience of having it available in one place.
I really appreciate the input of RBA, Juan, Harry, Sleshin, JLake and others who have been very helpful. OK, back to work!!
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Hi all
I really like PI from the little I know on how to work with it (thanks to Harry and very few others) but let me get this straight to see if I can understand it properly:
...after paying €206 for my PI license, and since there is no instruction manual for this "very simple" program...and since all the info I need on the PI tools I have to dig out from this forum, since it's all scattered in many posts (not the forum's fault..it's a forum and not the official PI website)... I now need to buy the rolling tutorial packs at €49 each and that in the end it will mount up to about another €500 (say...ten packs with 5 tools explained in each).
So when I've spent about €700 in total I'll have a great program and a manual in the form of tutorials that I can't even download.
...hmmm... for a 52 year old and unemployed advertising copywriter, marketeer and strategist with a 25 year career, I feel quite stupid right now. I wonder why...
regards
Paulo Mesquita
Portugal
PS - I'm not blaming anyone but myself. I was stupid and I have to deal with the loss.
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Please relax, Paulo!
I definitely understand that you're frustrated, and the issue about documentation has come up quite a bit in these forum threads.
You definitely do NOT have to shell out the $50 (total, by the way, for the whole IP4AP PixInsight series) to learn PixInsight... they might just be helpful.
A motivated user that is willing to experiment could probably teach themselves PI just by reading the tooltips you get when you mouseover different parts of the tools. Several of the tools are documented online extremely well: http://pixinsight.com/doc/tools/ImageIntegration/ImageIntegration.html
For those of us that needed more, there were Harry's great videos (all free): http://www.harrysastroshed.com/pixinsighthome.html
A lot of us learned some great new things from Vicent Peris' YouTube 2 part tutorial, also free: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqhLKIjGMXA&list=PL67AB2FC8F37C35B1&index=2&feature=plpp_video
If there's anything specific you want to learn about, please ask, the members of this forum have been incredibly helpful to me.
No one would agree that PI is a "very simple" program -- it has many parts, many tools, and a huge amount of functionality. We do not use it for its simplicity, we use it for its power. The power requires complexity and a human touch, where one method of processing is not best for every image.
If you have a PI license, that's really all you need to pay for. Warren's great tutorials (a real bargain at $50 total for the whole PixInsight series!) would help you get more out of your tools, that's all.
If you were willing to post some of your nice M42 or Horsehead data to the Image Processing Challenge thread, I'm sure you'd find several people who would be willing to try your data and share the workflow. I do this for people often, and I'd be happy to try it with yours. I'll screenshot all of my steps and explain the details of the logic and order I used to get the result.
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as i sent to you privately, since the BackyardEOS yahoogroup is not letting me make forum posts from the web right now... warren has no affiliation with pixinsight. please stop implying in public forums that warren and juan are in cahoots somehow and have tricked you into having to spend more money to get the manual.
seriously, log off of the computer, calm down and come back tomorrow. there's no conspiracy here.
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I know there's o conspiracy here. And I don't want to offend anyone. Ina d I' sure that Warren's tutorials are all very good from what I saw of one. But I still feel it's very frustrating for someone who is starting to be running around catching loose ends of info here and there and trying to make sense of it all. Many of you will probably work PI with your eyes closed...but I'm a newbie who know how to look for info on basics and I spent more time doing that - a lot more time - than actually processing. God bless Harry and his videos!!! I've seen them at least 15 times each. I've also seen the Youtube videos and I use the mouseover tool.
But there are so many tools and so little info on how to interlace processes...it's very frustrating.
one thing that raised my curiosity: you said the €49 is for the entire series of warrens tutorials? I thought it was just for those on his web page and that more packages were to come at the same price. If I was wrong, my public apologies. And if €49 is what I need to pay...I'll very gladly do so...as you may imagine!!!!
cheers
Paulo
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Believe me, Paulo, we've all been newbies at PixInsight at some point (except for Juan et al...). I only started using PI 3 years ago, and I ran into a lot of snags and troubles before getting very good quality results.
What specifically is giving you trouble? There are dozens of processes to choose from, but you really only need about 10 to produce a great image, depending on your data. I think Vicent's video does a great job of showing the full process, and so do a couple of Harry's. What more is it that you are looking for? What do you feel like you are missing?
Also, I just checked IP4AP and it really does look like Warren's tutorial series (with a rolling release, as they are being created even now) will be $50 total. He has several other series about Photoshop and processing in general that are very good, but I think the PI one is the one you'd want. Keep in mind that there are currently only 17 tutorials up, mostly pre-processing and a bit about background extraction.
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At the risk of getting into a `PI vs PS' thread, which I know we all want to avoid, I'll point out something in PI's defense:
Although PS is popular with many astro-imagers, it doesn't come with a manual if that's what you're going to do with it. The vast majority of documentation sources for PS are all about terrestrial photography, and don't come with PS by default anyway. So, for astro-imaging with PS, you basically have to buy Ron Wodaski's `New CCD Astronomy' book, Scott Ireland's `Photoshop Astronomy' book, maybe some books or CDs from Jerry Lodriguss, and if you're *very* lucky, you might land a rare copy of Ron's `Astro Zone System' book. (I was one of the lucky ones who got a copy at AIC 2011.) One will probably have bought Berry and Burnell's book, too.
Then, there are other video tutorial series, such as... Warren's, for one. Plus those by Adam Block and others.
In the end, I'd argue that if one doesn't know much about PS, and one starts using it seriously as an astro-imager, it requires as much of an investment in `outside learning materials' as PI.
- Marek
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Well said Marek. I think many people who complain about the "difficulty" of PI compared with PS forget how non obvious PS was when they opened it up for the first time and how much of a learning curve they faced before managing to do a reasonable job of processing.
Geoff
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The same for me. I've been using PS before PI and also had to search the internet for tutorials and books on astrophotographic image processing.
When I switched to PI some 5 months ago, I immediately browsed the forums and Harry's videos.
I very quickly was able to produce decent results, not fantastic, but decent. Then, step by step, I learned some other tools, LCE, ACDNR,etc and was able to improve my "processing skills". Not like the experts and gurus, but nevertheless. I never felt that I was "on my own".
Even the stacking worked fine within a week ! It took that long because my data was not that great. The result was that I spent more time taking polar aligning.
Eddy
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As it's been said, Warren's tutorials are not $50 a piece, but $50 minus-one-cent for the whole series.
I was worried this point wasn't well made in the IP4P page about the PixInsight series, but I just checked and right above where the price is mentioned, the web page states:
Your purchase will give you access to new tutorials as they are released.
And I think that's easily understood.
I know my opinion can be measured as having a "conflict of interests", but regardless, looking at what others charge for their Photoshop tutorials for astroimage processing, I think Warren's price is actually quite reasonable. And of course, there's the free route, many of us know well and have enjoyed it rather than suffered it.
So whatever works for you, but please pay attention to these - and possibly other - details.. Talking about a product as if it costs $500 when it really costs $50 is a big deal.
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Hi. Has anyone tried these? Do they add much over Harry's excellent tutorials?
Now I have a little experience in pixinsight, I am finding I am picking up a lot by watching Harry's tutorials again.
Colin
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I certainly think they're worth the money so far, and I can't wait for them to get into some of the more complex processes later on.
But don't take my word for it, check out one of the free sample videos (http://ip4ap.com/pixinsight.htm), Batch Preprocessing or processing in the Linear State. They're fair samples of the series and give you a preview of Warren's style and RBA's expert understanding.
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I'm also a newbie here and I must say that after assimilating Harry's excellent steps, the Warren Tutorials are taking me into the "next step". IMHO they are sequential for a newbie who wants to start doing some serious processing...
...just my 2 cents...
cheers
paulo Mesquita
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I agree that these videos are an excellent resource. They clearly articulate the workflow (and theory) for processing using PI. As a newbie to PI I'd recommend them for others new to this software.
-Chris.
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I'm enjoying the videos from Warren and Rogelio. I also bought the AA and PS versions so it was an easy choice for me.
Tom
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..."AA"...astronomers annonymous? :laugh: I know we're addicted (ask our wives)..
....can you clarify, please.
cheers
Paulo
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AstroArt
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ahhh...thanks
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Hello list friends,
With Part-1 of our IP4AP PixInsight series complete, I did want to publicly thank Juan for his support and also this forum for theirs. Special gratitude to RBA of course, and also Harry Page, Steve Leshin, Josh Lake, and others!
I need to clarify something for the record and am grateful to the moderators for their indulgence. Where RBA states '$50 minus-one-cent for the whole series', this refers to the whole PixInsight Part-1 series only. This must be distinctly understood. The initial offering was not as clear as it should have been and for this we do truly apologize. We put tremendous effort into research, writing, and production, and have as much as a week's work into one 7-minute tutorial. This was in no way an intent to confuse, or worse- deceive. We simply had not realized that there would need to be a second installment given the breadth of the subject.
We split the series off a month or so ago to enable us to produce a DVD and to keep the project at a manageable length. Work on Part-2 begins this week. Please forgive our oversight and realize that at $39.99, the rolling release is an unprecedented value. We in essence make an agreement with the purchaser, providing a low introductory price in exchange for their patience as we craft a series into what will become a final, viable product.
Astro-imagers as a whole comprise an incredibly fair community. To anyone who feels as if we've slighted them, please do not hold this small oversight against us. We work tremendously hard with the caring heart of a teacher. The 2.5 hours of 22 tutorials of Part-1 took thirteen months to produce. It is impossible for us to work an additional year for $40 and I hope that anyone with an understanding soul appreciates this.
We've had a tremendous response to both the Part-2 announcement and our Part-1 DVD offer. Over 50 subscribers signed up the first day! Despite our imperfection, we have received affirmation that we're doing a very good job and for that we are truly grateful to all of you. Thanks again to all! Here is the updated landing page of our site
http://www.ip4ap.com/pixinsight.htm
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Dear Warren,
although I was an "early complainer" due to my ignorance I now have totally subscribed to the tutorials and I've already paid this morning for Part-2. Of course I'm very pleased with the $39.99 price and I hope that all the parts are kept at that price... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:...
cheers and keep up the excellent work.
Paulo
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Hi Warren
Congratulations, for finishing this first part. But I have a further question; will part 2 be the final one or will there be others to follow? What will they cover?
Raymond
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Hi Warren
Congratulations, for finishing this first part. But I have a further question; will part 2 be the final one or will there be others to follow? What will they cover?
Raymond
good point....I don't want to go bankrupt... :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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Hi ya guys,
Thanks for the many kind words of support.
Our intention is to wrap up PI in Part-2. As we know, Juan and the PTeam are constantly adding and improving the platform, and that may require subsequent coverage down the road. At some point this year, we will switch IP4AP over to a Lynda.com-type subscription model. One monthly fee would grant access to all of our content. When that happens, adding content via streams would be easier and not have to wait for a new series to be done. That's the best I can tell you for now until we get closer to that change and how we'll handle the transition.
It's going to be another long year of work! I'm glad to have RBA back in the states. I'm installing 1.8 Ripley tonight and also Camtasia Studio Screen Recorder version 8. Once I get a handle on it (using v. 7 now), the videos should look even better for it. I'll begin writing scripts anew this week.
Thanks again for your kind interest, patience, and support. We do greatly appreciate it.
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Dear list,
Our new PixInsight Part-1 tutorial DVD is finally ready to ship! The streaming
version has been a hot ticket for us thanks to you. The disc contains 2.5 hours of pure
information in twenty-three, highly produced and scripted flash tutorials by
myself w/ consultation by Rogelio Bernal Andreo.
Samples are available linked from here-
http://www.ip4ap.com/pixinsight.htm
Here too is some verbiage from the press release-
This time out, IP4AP boards a new vehicle called PixInsight for which there is
tremendous interest. Warren Keller has teamed with PixInsight Expert Rogelio
Bernal Andreo, an APOD imager and recipient of AIC's prestigious Pleiades Award.
IP4AP's succinct and to the point format delivers the much needed 'context and
chronology' to the existing information available on PixInsight- the what to do
and when to do it. If you're new to image processing, PixInsight is specifically
designed for Astrophotography, and is a very powerful and less expensive
alternative to Photoshop. Part-1 of the series will get you comfortable
navigating in PixInsight. You'll learn how to Reduce, Align, and Combine quality
master files; and while still in the linear space: repair Gradients with ABE and
DBE, achieve proper color balance with ColorCalibration, and restore sharpness
with Deconvolution.
Here is the Table of Contents-
http://www.ip4ap.com/pixinsight_part1.htm
PixInsight Part-1 DVD will be available from OPT, Ian King, Teleskop-Service and
other fine shops, as well as directly immediately-
http://www.ip4ap.com/dvd.htm
Work too has begun on Part-2, in streaming, rolling release only, during production-
http://ip4ap.com/pixinsight_part2.htm
Thanks so much for your kind attention! Thanks too to the moderators for their liberal support of our efforts.
Best, Warren, Rogelio and Peter
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My DVD s alreadu on it's way to me.... :D
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If it's okay with Juan, I'm going to give the Warren/RBA tutorials an enthusiastic endorsement, because one of them really helped me out of a jam recently.
I shot some unbinned LRGB data on M33 back in the autumn, and I spent months trying to get the linear image deconvolved. I have had decent results with Deconvolution before, but I couldn't get either the Luminance image, nor the RGB image, to deconvolve. I kept getting subtle ringing, no matter what I did.
(In the end, I realized the futility of unbinned LRGB, and just went with the RGB data. But the problem still remained - I kept getting this ringing!)
After watching the IP4AP video(s?) about Deconvolution, I got a much better result! There is some straightforward advice on how to determine the PSF, and it made all the difference in the world. I don't want to say more, since giving away this information would feel a bit like pirating music, and I want RBA and Warren to be rewarded for their hard work. I'll say this, though: After beating my head against Deconvolution for so many months, it was well worth the money to get past that point!
The image in question is my most recent M33 image:
http://photonshotnoise.blogspot.com/2013/02/2012s-m33-at-last.html
Thanks for the useful advice, guys! It helped me a lot!
- Marek
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I just bought the DVD and it arrived a few days ago. After over 12 months of rain and cloud i have had no imaging done but i am sure to put this to good use. its great to se the positive results from the tutorials - it shows promise for some one as thick as me! ;)
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I have had a look at the IP4AP webpage and underdstood it quite differently. It states quite clearly that part 1 consists of 22 vids totaling about 2,5 hours, it is not downloadable and costs 60$. There is also DVD for 70$. The link to part 2 also states quite clearly that this costs another 40$ and consists currently of 7 parts totaling 30 minutes and that more will follow free of charge. Just what and how much in part 2 will follow is not mentioned - or if there will be parts 3,4,5 ...
I did have a look at the free demo vids, they do appear to be of good quality and clear to understand but from these and the listed topics I would suggest they are for absolute beginners. I personaly am relatively new to PI but have imaging experiance and find them simply to basic. I am also not keen on the idea of not being able to download them. I think the series from Harry are an excelant start for beginers to intermediates and also free of charge.
Dave
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I have both series 1 and 2 subscriptions and recently bought the DVD (at a discount of course). The authors were perfectly happy for me to have the DVD ripped into iTunes so i could make it 'portable' for when I travel which was a refreshing change of attitude!
The authors clearly wanted to cover everything from the ground up so they do of course have some basic stuff in there. What I really like about the videos is that they make a real effort to tell you what settings work. That is, they get you going and allow you to produce good images very quickly without pain. I really like this as with literally billions of combinations of settings in PI you could get lost for ever.
I give the series a big thumbs up. When used in combination with Harry's videos, the PI official 2 part LRGB tutorial and the Drake Visual workflows you are onto a winner.
Cheers
Chris
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Hello gents, I'd not followed this thread until now and wanted to thank you, particularly Marek and Chris for their kind comments. And Marek, thank you so very much for the blog mention! We do indeed work very hard on the tutorials and I'm so pleased to see they are having positive results. I join everyone in applauding Harry's efforts. He's been very supportive and was also helpful to us early on.
Dave, just to clarify- that is correct, as I produce a series, it is in 'rolling release'. You buy in for a significantly discounted price, in exchange for patience while we write/edit/produce. There are now 15 chapters in Part-2 done! When that completes, we'll go to DVD as well. As to your question, I'm not certain when that will be. We all realize at this point how rich/dense the program is and that it is being added to consistently, so it's difficult to say 'let's call it a day'. As an example, I would not have been able to cover the brand new TGVDenoise.
My current feeling is to again go to ~20+ chapters at ~2.5h+ as it's digestible and lends itself well to a DVD. If that's the scenario, Part-3 would begin with advanced techniques- mosaicking, advanced wavelets, Narrowband, etc. While we would again charge a low, rolling release price for it, we would accommodate subscribers to Part-2 by granting access to 3 at an even lower cost (perhaps even nominal though don't quote me yet) than new subscribers.
As you point out, the DVD is convenient for offline viewing, and the inability to save streams can be an inconvenience. Bear in mind though, that our streams now allow the tuts to be viewed on nonFlash pads/tablets via HTML5, so that's something to consider, and as Chris said, we are always ready to work with our client family to get you what you need at an affordable price.
One thing I'd vehemently defend is the importance of Part-1 having started at the very beginning. As some of you know, I was a documentarian of Photoshop beforehand and took the same 'Square-1' approach. There are many intermediate, even advanced processors who missed the most basic tricks and shortcuts. I feel it's essential to cover the workspace thoroughly, and this is never a waste of time, even for professionals.
Thanks again to you all for your support. It is much appreciated.